Miscellaneous >1900 (Alternate) History Thread

coz957

Banned
RMcD94 said:
General idea for a potential alternative ww2 with USA involved much later but stronger USSR

After Molotov-Ribbentrop pact Stalin is paranoid about USA economic might and signs a pact with Japan and tells them not to declare war on the USA but they can fight the allies
Japan never joins tripartite pact, nor joins an official pact with USSR
They divide china like with eastern Europe (just theoretically for now)
USA continues embargoes and lend lease to USSR to help against Germany (to help Britain), to China to help against Japan (to help Britain) and to Britain (to help against Britain)

1. WW2 as OTL up until 1941 except Soviets do better in Poland and Finland
2. April 1941 Iraq coup, Turkey allows Axis to use its railways basically joining because its scared of more aggro Soviet. They get Iraq oil but cant do anything with it because no tankers
3. Barbarossa slightly delayed because of new front in Iraq/Syria but otherwise as otl, not enough time to prep at turkish border so little movement, but black sea becomes axis sea sooner
4. Because Stalin listen to his generals Soviets better prepared and its not the amazing push we saw otl, however Nazis have slightly more oil and better help in Black sea and from Turkey so that is in their favour. but the invasion started from further west and no Finland so that helps soviets. Mostly soviets are ready for it so nazis have no chance
5. Iran invasion British more desperate for USSR help and scared about Iran/Afghanistan joining Axis because of Iraq so happens sooner. lend lease still happens as otl at least until after dec 1941
6. In order to threaten Suez encouraged by Italians and anti-Jewish Nazis push through Syria and attack Transjordan and Israel. By using Syria like this Free France is more popular outside of closer places to the Med.
7. Suez falls from both angles and British retreat down the Nile, the Med becomes Axis lake. Cyprus falls then Malta

World is something like this:

View attachment 478178

8. japan invades dutch east indies ignoring american possessions (America still embargoes Japan but they have more trade from Soviets), they continue to collaborate with vichy france in indochina and china but are neutral in the nazi soviet war and the nazi allies war.

So there are three wars:

Japan vs Allies (USA supports)
Nazis vs Allies (USA supports)
Nazis vs Soviets (USA supports Soviets to help Britain)
Soviets are neutral to Japanese, the Japanese are neutral to the Nazis, the Allies are neutral to the Soviets

9. After Nazis lose steam Soviets begin to push back, demanding Britain start a two front war
10. Britain focuses on Africa and Middle East as Japanese steamroll Pacific, invading Australia. Stalin secretly agrees to help against Japan after Germany is defeated in return to keep lend lease going
11. Soviets establish air superiority over black sea and push along Anatolia to seize the straits
12. soviets and british jointly retake Jerusalem, discovering horrors, and then Suez
13. Free France takes East Africa and Madagascar.
14. After securing Burma Japan begins to invade India, while Asia goes badly Europe is going better
15. Soviets push in Eastern Europe and Nazis depopulate everywhere else with soldiers. Norway is invaded, and North Africa slowly falls.
16. Eventually dday happens with commonwealth and allies troops. Soviets seize all of Germany to the Rhine, all of Balkans including Greece, and Italy goes communist.
17. Japanese control most of China, Oceania and are involved in India
18. at this point now that Germany is gone USA has enough propaganda and war support to get them involved against Japan (americans were pretty against German intervention even though they supported the Brits)
19. Its 1945/46 and USA declares on Japan while the Soviet prepares for war with Japan, it has supported tons of commies in china secretly and along their demarcated sphere line they agreed upon
20. Americans and British in India, SEA and Oceania and the Soviets push in China and Manchuria. Obviously tons of commie support everywhere as OTL
21. Soviets destroy Japanese with their veteran troops but dont have a navy to really invade, eventually USA/Brits wear down the Japanese navy and invasion of mainland commences in 1947/48. Japan is partitioned

Cold war begins with Soviets holding the Bosporus, most of Europe and China. Lots of commie revolts in colonies, especially SEA as OTL, more in India too. Soviets closer to Africa so Egypt likely goes commie. No Israel ITTL because Jerusalem was destroyed by nazis
Click to expand...
This needs its own thread.
 
McPherson

McPherson

Banned
RMcD94 said:
General idea for a potential alternative ww2 with USA involved much later but stronger USSR

After Molotov-Ribbentrop pact Stalin is paranoid about USA economic might and signs a pact with Japan and tells them not to declare war on the USA but they can fight the allies
Japan never joins tripartite pact, nor joins an official pact with USSR
They divide china like with eastern Europe (just theoretically for now)
USA continues embargoes and lend lease to USSR to help against Germany (to help Britain), to China to help against Japan (to help Britain) and to Britain (to help against Britain)

1. WW2 as OTL up until 1941 except Soviets do better in Poland and Finland
2. April 1941 Iraq coup, Turkey allows Axis to use its railways basically joining because its scared of more aggro Soviet. They get Iraq oil but cant do anything with it because no tankers
3. Barbarossa slightly delayed because of new front in Iraq/Syria but otherwise as otl, not enough time to prep at turkish border so little movement, but black sea becomes axis sea sooner
4. Because Stalin listen to his generals Soviets better prepared and its not the amazing push we saw otl, however Nazis have slightly more oil and better help in Black sea and from Turkey so that is in their favour. but the invasion started from further west and no Finland so that helps soviets. Mostly soviets are ready for it so nazis have no chance
5. Iran invasion British more desperate for USSR help and scared about Iran/Afghanistan joining Axis because of Iraq so happens sooner. lend lease still happens as otl at least until after dec 1941
6. In order to threaten Suez encouraged by Italians and anti-Jewish Nazis push through Syria and attack Transjordan and Israel. By using Syria like this Free France is more popular outside of closer places to the Med.
7. Suez falls from both angles and British retreat down the Nile, the Med becomes Axis lake. Cyprus falls then Malta

World is something like this:

View attachment 478178

8. japan invades dutch east indies ignoring american possessions (America still embargoes Japan but they have more trade from Soviets), they continue to collaborate with vichy france in indochina and china but are neutral in the nazi soviet war and the nazi allies war.

So there are three wars:

Japan vs Allies (USA supports)
Nazis vs Allies (USA supports)
Nazis vs Soviets (USA supports Soviets to help Britain)
Soviets are neutral to Japanese, the Japanese are neutral to the Nazis, the Allies are neutral to the Soviets

9. After Nazis lose steam Soviets begin to push back, demanding Britain start a two front war
10. Britain focuses on Africa and Middle East as Japanese steamroll Pacific, invading Australia. Stalin secretly agrees to help against Japan after Germany is defeated in return to keep lend lease going
11. Soviets establish air superiority over black sea and push along Anatolia to seize the straits
12. soviets and british jointly retake Jerusalem, discovering horrors, and then Suez
13. Free France takes East Africa and Madagascar.
14. After securing Burma Japan begins to invade India, while Asia goes badly Europe is going better
15. Soviets push in Eastern Europe and Nazis depopulate everywhere else with soldiers. Norway is invaded, and North Africa slowly falls.
16. Eventually dday happens with commonwealth and allies troops. Soviets seize all of Germany to the Rhine, all of Balkans including Greece, and Italy goes communist.
17. Japanese control most of China, Oceania and are involved in India
18. at this point now that Germany is gone USA has enough propaganda and war support to get them involved against Japan (americans were pretty against German intervention even though they supported the Brits)
19. Its 1945/46 and USA declares on Japan while the Soviet prepares for war with Japan, it has supported tons of commies in china secretly and along their demarcated sphere line they agreed upon
20. Americans and British in India, SEA and Oceania and the Soviets push in China and Manchuria. Obviously tons of commie support everywhere as OTL
21. Soviets destroy Japanese with their veteran troops but dont have a navy to really invade, eventually USA/Brits wear down the Japanese navy and invasion of mainland commences in 1947/48. Japan is partitioned

Cold war begins with Soviets holding the Bosporus, most of Europe and China. Lots of commie revolts in colonies, especially SEA as OTL, more in India too. Soviets closer to Africa so Egypt likely goes commie. No Israel ITTL because Jerusalem was destroyed by nazis
Click to expand...

The basic Mackinder error. With no navy or strategic air force, or one to help them out, the Russians go.... nowhere.
 
McPherson

McPherson

Banned
Shrug, I back-noticed an unusual and very interesting thesis which had a problem that needed clarification. If the Russians were to exercise some of their options, especially in east Asia, they need the AMERICAN NAVY to clear the way.
 
Zyobot

Zyobot

‘JFK Wins The Electoral College And Loses The Popular Vote In 1960’.

Yes, I’m aware of arguments holding that Nixon was the real popular vote winner IOTL. But in the scenario I’m proposing, it would be considered official rather than just theorized.
 

Kara0616

I need to know something. What would have happened if Disney president Frank Wells never died? Now I already know about the whole Jeffery Katzenberg thing and how Frank's death inadvertently lead to the creation of DreamWorks Pictures, but I need some answers as to what else would have changed if he hadn't died.
 
RMcD94

RMcD94

If the Netherlands and Luxembourg don't go out of personal union (many minor PODs) how does the western front of WW1 change?
 
Count of Crisco

Count of Crisco

Glen Ryder said:
I have a question that's not really worth opening an entire thread over.

Could the Great War have been avoided?
Click to expand...
The war as we know it? Sure, through alot of ways. Franz Ferdinand could have not been killed, Austria could have realized the assassin was not a Serbian agent and not declared war, or they could have declared war sooner. Russia could have not declared war on Austria to defend the rather insignificant kingdom of Serbia, etcetera...

However sooner or later a major European war would break out. I suspect sooner rather than later. The major powers of the period were all gearing up for a fight, and even seeking one out.
 
Ultradeth.

Ultradeth.

Count of Crisco said:
The war as we know it? Sure, through alot of ways. Franz Ferdinand could have not been killed, Austria could have realized the assassin was not a Serbian agent and not declared war, or they could have declared war sooner. Russia could have not declared war on Austria to defend the rather insignificant kingdom of Serbia, etcetera...

However sooner or later a major European war would break out. I suspect sooner rather than later. The major powers of the period were all gearing up for a fight, and even seeking one out.
Click to expand...

People wanted this war, they wouldn't have had they known what it would lead to, I hope.
 
LordUltimus

LordUltimus

Ogrebear said:
Do you need Rock and Roll to emerge eariler?

Or maybe something like musicians Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, and "The Big Bopper" J. P. Richardson not die in a plane crash?
Click to expand...
Maybe. Was thinking like the hippies in terms of rejection of society and national attention. Doesn't have to last any longer than hippies did, just something as big.

Viet Nam starting sooner? Or some war like it? Beatniks get different leaders than mostly conservative guys?
 
Zyobot

Zyobot

‘Governor Bush Wins By His OTL 2004 Margins In 2000’. That is, somewhere around 286 electoral votes and a bit over fifty percent of the national popular vote—which, while not a lopsided victory, is still much more decisive than what we got IOTL 2000.
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
While reading "West Point - Two Centuries of Honor and Tradition" edited by Robert Crowley and Thomas Ginzburg, I came across these three episodes with plenty of AH potential:

Sept 12, 1918 - near St. Mihiel, France
George Patton and thirty of his little Renault tanks advanced with the 42nd Rainbow Division. Sometime during the morning he encountered (Douglas) MacArthur. "I walked along the firing line of one Brigade." Patton wrote. "They were all in shell holes except the general, who was standing on a little hill. I joined him and the creeping barrage came along towards us, but very thin and not dangerous. I think each one wanted to leave but each hated to say soo, so we let it come over us."
Click to expand...
What if.... Patton and Mac weren't so lucky on that day, and the barrage kills them both?


March 1921 - West Point
Meanwhile, his (Douglas MacArthur) adversaries had mounted a campaign to remove MacArthur (as Superintendent of West Point). They enlisted the backing of influential DOGS (Disgruntled Old Grads)........ Then in March 1921, the Republican administration of Warren Harding took over. Pershing replaced MacArthur's chief supporter (Gen Peyton) March, as Army Chief of Staff. Pershing was no fan of MacArthur
Click to expand...
For all of his flaws, Mac worked very hard to bring the West Point curriculum into the 20th Century. His ouster as Superintendent largely left that institution revert back to a 19th Century constabulary mindset. What happens if Mac's tenure at West Point runs longer and his reforms are sustained?


Autumn 1921 - Jan 1922
A woman seems to have been MacArthur's final undoing, though his biographers have argued the role she played. Louise Cromwell Brooks..... who had briefly been Pershing's mistress. He (Pershing) looked on benignly as his .... aide.... became unofficially engaged to her. In the fall of 1921 ,.... MacArthur and Mrs. Brooks met. The attraction was immediate. A few weeks later, ... MacArthur proposed....... Pershing was apparently furious - as much because of the jilting of his favorite aide as anything else. On January 30, 1922, Pershing sent MacArthur a letter out of the blue: He was to be transferred to the Philippines at the end of the school year.
Click to expand...
What if..... Pershing wasn't so petty? Most US Army officers served stints in the Philippines back then, at one point or another in their career, but might a change here alter Mac's career arc?
 
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