The real problem is that this change was, afaik, only felt to be really needed from late(ish) 1943. But that's exactly when Hitler starts to slide down into "everyone is against me all are idiot defeatists I know better"... so, not an easy task.
Miscellaneous >1900 (Alternate) History Thread
- Thread starter RMcD94
- Start date
The real problem is that this change was, afaik, only felt to be really needed from late(ish) 1943. But that's exactly when Hitler starts to slide down into "everyone is against me all are idiot defeatists I know better"... so, not an easy task.
McPherson
Banned
Kannhuber.
Crooked, corrupt, shifty, dishonest, backstabber, political, brilliant, formidable, competent, pragmatic, untrustworthy, extremely dangerous. Sort of like a Douglas MacArthur, but with the ability that MacArthur lacked to use and swindle people out of their eyeteeth while getting the most out of them for the benefit of Albert Kesselring. Next to Kannhuber the most dangerous Luftwaffe man there was.
This has probably been done before, but what if MacArthur either stops before the Yalu river or Dugout Doug is removed or incapacitated some how and his substitute halts the offense?
How could things have turned out if the Korean war effectively ends before Christmas 1950?
How could things have turned out if the Korean war effectively ends before Christmas 1950?
Driftless
Donor
Reinhard Heydrich dies during Operation Weserubung, or is captured by the Soviets during Barbarossa. (He flew in Norway, and was shot down and very nearly captured in Russia)
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How was the situation on the eastern front of WWI before the Germans sent Lenin back to Russia? Would the stalemate have been prolonged if Lenin had never been sent?
Most likely, afaik, unless something drastic really changed. Germany was focusing on the western front, being more or less content with keeping the russians in check, slowly bleeding them, since it didn't have the resources for a large scale engagment. And Russia could barelly hold on on the defensive...
I’m in the early planning stages of a WW2/Cold War Timeline that has the Third Reich survive the war, albeit barely. I know it has several/many ASB features in it but I find it fascinating nonetheless.
I would appreciate constructive criticism and feedback on it. I know the knee jerk responses and armchair historians will critique much of it, and I agree with you. It is unrealistic. I’m not trying trying to say this could have happened, I’m just saying what if events occurred this way and what could have happened as a result.
Here are some story beats and highlights:
-Göring dies due to a drug overdose after the failure of the Battle of Britain and the upcoming war with the Soviets, leaving several other semi-competent Luftwaffe generals to run it, mainly the quartet of Field Marshal Josef Kammhuber (Commander of the Luftwaffe), Adolf Galland (Commander of the Fighters), Erhard Milch (Inspector-General of Aircraft Production and Design), and Albert Kesselring (Luftwaffe C-in-C South)
-Germans don’t launch Operation Citadel but rather conduct a strategic fighting withdraw throughout 1943 and 1944, with several minor counter-offensives but largely a well executed fighting withdraw westward. (I know this is very anti-Hitler, but Hitler was very cautious in carrying out this offensive, and let us say the intel presented to him, possibly a spy reveals the extent of the Soviet entrenchments at the Kursk Salient has him call off the operation before its launched).
-Operation Overlord fails with 200,000+ Allied soldiers being captured. This takes place early to late June and an armistice between the Western Allies and the European Axis Powers takes place, called the July Armistice. (There are several more panzer divisions in Northern France due to the Germans having a larger panzer reserve due to not losing so many during the Battle of Kursk since that battle was more a defensive withdrawal rather an attack on fortified Soviet positions and Hitler orders them in faster than OTL, though Rommel took the initiative and did so before Hitler ordered it. Hitler ordered it to legitimize Rommel’s decision)
-Britain, exhausted by war and facing financial ruin alongside growing discontent at home, brokers for peace via Sweden. This is the July Armistice. The Americans hesitantly agree to the Armistice but are furious, but with Overlord’s failure, many Americans call for the war in Europe to end so the USA can focus on Japan and get the hundreds of thousands of American POWs to come back home.
-in August of 1944 Franklin D. Roosevelt, whose health has greatly deteriorated since the D-Day Failure, dies. Henry Wallace becomes president. Wallace agrees to the July Armistice (American operations having been out on hold due to material /manpower lost in Overlord as well as the British forbidding military operations out of the British Isles so as not to violate the July Armistice). The Treaty of Stockholm is signed on September 4th, 1944.
-There is no loss of Army Group Center in Bagration.
-The Germans can now fully focus on the east and from late 1944 to mid-1945 bleed the Red Army in Poland. This is due to the German building an extensive multilayered defensive entrenchment system throughout central Poland.
-The war ends in Europe on May 7th, 1945 with the Soviets having liberated all of their USSR territory, barring Lithuania. Eastern Poland, Finland, and a chunk of Romania become Communist satellites to the USSR.
-Germany annexes Central Poland (General Government) and Lithuania in 1946. In 1947-1948 the Germans annex Luxembourg, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands and Norway. France is released from large scale German occupation with the new French State being a German puppet state. It is limited to an army of 50,000 and a German garrison of 50,000.
-Southern Italy becomes the Kingdom of Italy (South Italy) while northern Italy remains as the Italian Social Republic (North Italy). Albania and parts of Greece remain under Italian control while most of Greece becomes the Greek Fascist State.
-Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary, National France and National Greece remain German Allies/puppets.
-Heinrich Himmler is assassinated in 1947 by Lithuanian rebels. 50,000 Lithuanians that are not fully committed and loyal to their German overlords are rounded up and executed.
-Holocaust is in full swing throughout German-dominated Europe, with many Jews trying to flee to Britain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the Soviet-bloc.
-Hitler dies in 1949 from health issues. A fierce quiet succession crisis follows with the Party, SS (now led by Kaltenbruner) and the Wehrmacht agreeing on Ferdinand Schörner as the new Führer after weeks of heated debate. He is a committed Nazi, supports cleansing Europe of undesirables, and is a German Army Field Marshal. He is seen as a compromising choice. His main goal is to cement German hegemony and try and alleviate the German economy.
-As the war slowed down in Europe after the failed Soviet offensives of late ‘44/early ‘45, and peace feelers being sent out, Stalin orders the transfer of vast sums of manpower and equipment to Siberia.
The treaty with the Germans is signed on May 7th and the Soviet offensive in the east begins on July 2nd, 1945. The Soviets push deep into Japanese territory, and as American soldiers storm the beaches of Japan, the Soviets invade north Japan, creating a Communist North Japan versus a Democratic South Japan.
-Also all of Korea falls to the Soviets.
-Nationalist China, with significant support from the U.S., but mainly from Germany, defeat Communist China in the late 40s and begins to align with Nazi Germany to act as a counterbalance to the Soviets and to be free of American industrial/trade influence.
-Germany is a part of the U.N. Security Council.
The story truly begins in 1954 near the fifth anniversary of the war’s end and tensions between the Soviets and Germans are at an all time high, especially as North Japan is geared up to invade South Japan. So it’s a 3 way civil war.
-Stalin is still alive by mid 1954.
-POV characters are 3 Germans (1 veteran panzer Officer, a fresh German infantryman serving his conscription term, and a German secretary working in Nationalist China or South Japan); 3 French characters (1 a French Resistance fighter, 1 a State Guard, and another a Free French soldier in Algeria). There would also be at least 2 Soviets, 2-3 Americans and 2 British. One of the Americans would be an OSS agent (as the CIA is never created) and he would be akin to James Bond).
So, what do y’all think? Again I know its ASB but we are some thoughts to what I have here.
I would appreciate constructive criticism and feedback on it. I know the knee jerk responses and armchair historians will critique much of it, and I agree with you. It is unrealistic. I’m not trying trying to say this could have happened, I’m just saying what if events occurred this way and what could have happened as a result.
Here are some story beats and highlights:
-Göring dies due to a drug overdose after the failure of the Battle of Britain and the upcoming war with the Soviets, leaving several other semi-competent Luftwaffe generals to run it, mainly the quartet of Field Marshal Josef Kammhuber (Commander of the Luftwaffe), Adolf Galland (Commander of the Fighters), Erhard Milch (Inspector-General of Aircraft Production and Design), and Albert Kesselring (Luftwaffe C-in-C South)
-Germans don’t launch Operation Citadel but rather conduct a strategic fighting withdraw throughout 1943 and 1944, with several minor counter-offensives but largely a well executed fighting withdraw westward. (I know this is very anti-Hitler, but Hitler was very cautious in carrying out this offensive, and let us say the intel presented to him, possibly a spy reveals the extent of the Soviet entrenchments at the Kursk Salient has him call off the operation before its launched).
-Operation Overlord fails with 200,000+ Allied soldiers being captured. This takes place early to late June and an armistice between the Western Allies and the European Axis Powers takes place, called the July Armistice. (There are several more panzer divisions in Northern France due to the Germans having a larger panzer reserve due to not losing so many during the Battle of Kursk since that battle was more a defensive withdrawal rather an attack on fortified Soviet positions and Hitler orders them in faster than OTL, though Rommel took the initiative and did so before Hitler ordered it. Hitler ordered it to legitimize Rommel’s decision)
-Britain, exhausted by war and facing financial ruin alongside growing discontent at home, brokers for peace via Sweden. This is the July Armistice. The Americans hesitantly agree to the Armistice but are furious, but with Overlord’s failure, many Americans call for the war in Europe to end so the USA can focus on Japan and get the hundreds of thousands of American POWs to come back home.
-in August of 1944 Franklin D. Roosevelt, whose health has greatly deteriorated since the D-Day Failure, dies. Henry Wallace becomes president. Wallace agrees to the July Armistice (American operations having been out on hold due to material /manpower lost in Overlord as well as the British forbidding military operations out of the British Isles so as not to violate the July Armistice). The Treaty of Stockholm is signed on September 4th, 1944.
-There is no loss of Army Group Center in Bagration.
-The Germans can now fully focus on the east and from late 1944 to mid-1945 bleed the Red Army in Poland. This is due to the German building an extensive multilayered defensive entrenchment system throughout central Poland.
-The war ends in Europe on May 7th, 1945 with the Soviets having liberated all of their USSR territory, barring Lithuania. Eastern Poland, Finland, and a chunk of Romania become Communist satellites to the USSR.
-Germany annexes Central Poland (General Government) and Lithuania in 1946. In 1947-1948 the Germans annex Luxembourg, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands and Norway. France is released from large scale German occupation with the new French State being a German puppet state. It is limited to an army of 50,000 and a German garrison of 50,000.
-Southern Italy becomes the Kingdom of Italy (South Italy) while northern Italy remains as the Italian Social Republic (North Italy). Albania and parts of Greece remain under Italian control while most of Greece becomes the Greek Fascist State.
-Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary, National France and National Greece remain German Allies/puppets.
-Heinrich Himmler is assassinated in 1947 by Lithuanian rebels. 50,000 Lithuanians that are not fully committed and loyal to their German overlords are rounded up and executed.
-Holocaust is in full swing throughout German-dominated Europe, with many Jews trying to flee to Britain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the Soviet-bloc.
-Hitler dies in 1949 from health issues. A fierce quiet succession crisis follows with the Party, SS (now led by Kaltenbruner) and the Wehrmacht agreeing on Ferdinand Schörner as the new Führer after weeks of heated debate. He is a committed Nazi, supports cleansing Europe of undesirables, and is a German Army Field Marshal. He is seen as a compromising choice. His main goal is to cement German hegemony and try and alleviate the German economy.
-As the war slowed down in Europe after the failed Soviet offensives of late ‘44/early ‘45, and peace feelers being sent out, Stalin orders the transfer of vast sums of manpower and equipment to Siberia.
The treaty with the Germans is signed on May 7th and the Soviet offensive in the east begins on July 2nd, 1945. The Soviets push deep into Japanese territory, and as American soldiers storm the beaches of Japan, the Soviets invade north Japan, creating a Communist North Japan versus a Democratic South Japan.
-Also all of Korea falls to the Soviets.
-Nationalist China, with significant support from the U.S., but mainly from Germany, defeat Communist China in the late 40s and begins to align with Nazi Germany to act as a counterbalance to the Soviets and to be free of American industrial/trade influence.
-Germany is a part of the U.N. Security Council.
The story truly begins in 1954 near the fifth anniversary of the war’s end and tensions between the Soviets and Germans are at an all time high, especially as North Japan is geared up to invade South Japan. So it’s a 3 way civil war.
-Stalin is still alive by mid 1954.
-POV characters are 3 Germans (1 veteran panzer Officer, a fresh German infantryman serving his conscription term, and a German secretary working in Nationalist China or South Japan); 3 French characters (1 a French Resistance fighter, 1 a State Guard, and another a Free French soldier in Algeria). There would also be at least 2 Soviets, 2-3 Americans and 2 British. One of the Americans would be an OSS agent (as the CIA is never created) and he would be akin to James Bond).
So, what do y’all think? Again I know its ASB but we are some thoughts to what I have here.
McPherson
Banned
Politics, Technology, Logistics, Terrain, Weather, , competencies...
Berlin is turned into a smoking ruin July 4, 1946. How is that for analysis? This scenario (^^^) is as ASB as that outcome, I suggested, would be.
Politics
Point the first. Stalin.
Point the second. Churchill.
Point the third. FDR and after him Truman.
Point the fourth. Leader Principle dies when the Berlin Maniac does, because no-one else can hold that gangster regime together. Not those other clowns.
Those guys are not going to ever stop until the Berlin Maniac is D.E.A.D. and his criminal gang are in the graveyard of history with him.
Point the fifth. Technology. German tech was CRAP compared to Allied 1944 onward.
Point the sixth. Logistics. Germany is broke with no more resources, manpower, money and material means to hand to sustain a defense after Overlord and especially Bagration.
Point the Seventh. NUTCRACKER. (Terrain) Germany is small and surrounded. Either Mackinder or Mahan, take your pick, Germany is screwed.
Point the Eighth. The winters on good old planet Earth from 1943 to 1947 are unusually BITTER to add to the war, which means a lot of inevitable agricultural disasters are being masked by all the mass murdering going on, but it is there and Germany is out of food whether she fights or not. (China, too, but I digress.)
Point the ninth. We have a thread somewhere about all the military incompetents each nation had in WWII. It should be pinned as a discussion topic, because it covers just how awful some of those guys were. You should read what "I" have to write about some of the Germans selected in the scenario above as "competent". Not too flattering. Milch, for example, was a complete moron.
Point the tenth. Good ATL is based on RTL and not wish fulfillment and fantasyland. What I read was fantasyland, not even remotely plausible. Things happen for a reason. You can tweak the margins and produce butterflies, but the same real problems (Points 1-9) are not going to disappear. These have to be taken into account.
Example: ...Those Marvelous Tin Fish: The Great Torpedo Scandal Avoided. Current contributor.
I can barely get away with NiCad torpedoes, the Alice Springs to Darwin railroad and Mackerel snort boats, but MacArthur is still MacArthur, Turner is still Turner, and sh_t still happens that hobbles the Americans in the Pacific because the RTL non-ignorable factors like weather, technology, logistics, inherent (American) bad decision making and naval geography dictate what I can do.
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Again, I acknowledge that the story is ASB. I said so several times. And there is no Bagration (as pointed out in the scenario) and the German Army is more preserved by this ATL 1944 than OTL 1944.
Truman is not the VP by the time Roosevelt dies here, but rather the VP candidate for the upcoming ticket since the 1944 election hasn’t taken place yet. And perhaps Dewey and the Republicans win and are in office from 1945-1949.
I realize Germany is surrounded, that’s why they abandon Finland and shorten their frontline against the Soviets by withdrawing to entrenched divisions that they have spent years building.
Stalin is running out of manpower by 1945, and he has secured all pre-war Soviet territory barring Lithuania, and has puppet regimes in Eastern Poland, Finland and a sliver of Romania, as well as all of Korea and North Japan. He can show this as a victory to the Soviet people. They are bitter that they didn’t defeat Germany fully, but considering the alternative, they
From what I gathered Milch was one of the few Luftwaffe officers that was semi-competent at his job. He wasn’t great at it, but he did a fair job with what he had. And I took your suggestion over Kammhuber for a competent C-in-C of the Luftwaffe.
And for Schörner as Führer, from what I’ve read he was a strict disciplinarian and an able commander on the Eastern Front, especially in OTL 1944. In this ATL 1944 he would have proven to be one of the Reich’s best officers during the Second Battle of Warsaw in which he would encircle and destroy a large Soviet armored force, earning him the nickname the Lion of Warsaw. He would end the war as a national hero.
That’s good your timeline is so well researched and realistic. Congrats to you. I’m not aiming for realism, as I’ve obviously stated this is unrealistic and ASB territory. I am instead trying to create an interesting scenario that isn’t the common “Germany defeated Britain and occupies the British Isles” or “Germany won the war in Russia is 1941/1942 and now rules from the English Channel all the way to the Urals.” There are countless stories like that.
I find it funny that there are published authors out there who sell millions of copies of their books/series and pretty much all of them are ASB. Worldwar, The War That Came Early, Third Reich Victorious, In Presence of Mine Enemies, Man in the High Castle, and so on. Their stories either have some, or like mine, a lot of ASB points. And my first TL on this site was very unrealistic and a lot of people stopped reading it yet I still wrote over 500 pages on Microsoft Word worth of story and had hundreds of comments and I believe over a 100,000 views. So realism isn’t necessarily a must.
Don’t get me wrong ts nice to have and can legitimize your story but I’m going for entertainment and having a what-if scenario I haven’t seen before, hence why Speer doesn’t become Führer after Hitler.
I thank you for your points but you seemed to misinterpret what I’m trying to do. You say this or that is absolutely unrealistic, I get that, but I preferred feedback over what I have written down as “is it entertaining,” and so forth. If I am going for something realistic I would gladly hammer out ideas with you, wiking, CalBear and dozens of others.
Your feedback here has proven useful though, I hadn’t thought of any potential food crisis. Parts of my story (pretty much of all of it) needs to be refined with some issues ironed out and your reply will definitely help with that.
At the end of the day though, would you at least read the TL even if you know it was ASB and I was upfront about it being ASB?
Grey Wolf
Donor
Germany had driven Russian out of Poland, and was advancing in the Baltics. Their problem is that this is basically Russia's forecourt and the idea became: Could we knock Russia out of the war? Rather than: Can we just keep taking more territory?
i'll add that Queen Elizabeth II will still be Queen (maybe of Canada and some of the other old British Empire countries). maybe be Queen of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland in exile.
Grey Wolf
Donor
The change in effects that Star Wars brought along not happening would mean that there might be a Doctor Who film in c1980 or another series akin to Blakes Seven, which is character driven. The BBC won't feel that its effects are so outdated
Alright, then. I assume that TTL’s Star Wars would wind up noticeably different than our own from 1977?
Driftless
Donor
Any suggestions on books about the Pancho Villa/Punitive Expedition of 1916? I'm particularly interested in the history of the vehicles involved and maps of the various skirmishes. Most of what I've seen so far is a cursory listing of truck and motorcycle makes and that many had mechanical problems - but that is it, as far as I've found.
I have the "Hunt for Pancho Villa" by Alejandro de Quesada (Osprey) and "Pancho Villa and Black Jack Pershing" by James Hurst(Praeger). The latter book has more text, but real light on maps.
I have the "Hunt for Pancho Villa" by Alejandro de Quesada (Osprey) and "Pancho Villa and Black Jack Pershing" by James Hurst(Praeger). The latter book has more text, but real light on maps.
McPherson
Banned
1. Pancho Villa: The Life and Legacy of the Famous Mexican Revolutionary
by Charles River Editors and Gustavo Vázquez Lozano
2. US Army Operations in Mexico 1916-1917: The Punitive Expedition Against Pancho Villa and the Mexican Revolutionaries [Illustrated]
by Julie Irene Prieto and Roger G. Miller
3. The Hunt for Pancho Villa: The Columbus Raid and Pershing’s Punitive Expedition 1916–17
by Alejandro de Quesada, Peter Dennis, et al.
4. Doing My Duty: Corporal Elmer Dewey - One National Guard Doughboy's Experiences During The Pancho Villa Punitive Campaign And World War I
by Stephen A. Banks
5. Uniforms and Equipment of the Last Campaign, 1916: The Pursuit of Pancho Villa
by William C Machado
Good luck.
by Charles River Editors and Gustavo Vázquez Lozano
2. US Army Operations in Mexico 1916-1917: The Punitive Expedition Against Pancho Villa and the Mexican Revolutionaries [Illustrated]
by Julie Irene Prieto and Roger G. Miller
3. The Hunt for Pancho Villa: The Columbus Raid and Pershing’s Punitive Expedition 1916–17
by Alejandro de Quesada, Peter Dennis, et al.
4. Doing My Duty: Corporal Elmer Dewey - One National Guard Doughboy's Experiences During The Pancho Villa Punitive Campaign And World War I
by Stephen A. Banks
5. Uniforms and Equipment of the Last Campaign, 1916: The Pursuit of Pancho Villa
by William C Machado
Good luck.