Miscellaneous <1900 (Alternate) History Thread

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by RMcD94, Mar 5, 2019.

  1. Atamolos Pontifex, princeps, and augustus

    Dec 22, 2014
    The island from Lost
    What are the implications of Augustus' early death in 23 BCE? Agrippa and Marcellus were both alive at this time, so what might the succession look like, and would there be another round of civil wars?
  2. isabella Well-Known Member

    Mar 22, 2012
    In no way you will see a civil war between Agrippa and Marcellus as whatever contrast they had the speculations about it and Agrippa being exiled as consequence of such disagreements are exaggerations... sure Agrippa was outside Rome but was sent as governor in the eastern provinces and while he remained in Lesbos, sending only his legates in Syria is more likely who Agrippa was either a) put in charge of the greatest army of Rome as backup in case Augustus had trouble with the second settlement and needed military backup or b) was secretly negotiating with Parthians for the restitution of the Eagles of Crassus or both things at the same time. About the succession the only things of which I am sure are who Marcellus will be the personal heir of Augustus inheriting most of the wealth of his uncle and father-in-law (a part of it will go to Livia, another to Julia and likely something to Octavia and Agrippa plus we can be sure Augustus will left a lot of bequests) and Agrippa will stay in a position of power, maybe becoming Augustus’ main political heir and successor if Marcellus was judged too young and inexperienced for taking such big role, something pretty likely to happen. Remember who Agrippa at that time was already a member of the family of Augustus (he became part of the family in 28 aC with his second wedding to Marcella Major (Octavia’s eldest daughter so Augustus’ niece and Marcellus’ full sister) not with the third to Julia Major in 21) and Marcellus’ brother-in-law. If Marcellus still died few months after his uncle then Agrippa’s position of power would be established and uncontested without any need to divorce from his wife for marrying Julia. Likely the inheritance of the childless Marcellus will be divided between his mother, widow and sisters with the biggest part going to eldest sister Marcella Major (aka Agrippa’s wife), that if Augustus had not already named Agrippa as heir after Marcellus in his own will. With Marcellus death Agrippa would have little to fear as both Octavia (his mother-in-law) and Livia (whose sons would be strictly tied to Agrippa as Tiberius is engaged/married to Agrippa’s eldest daughter and Drusus to his younger (half-)sister-in-law) will be on his side. Not being anymore the symbol of the transfer of power Julia Augusti will have more freedom in remarrying (and likely will marry Octavia’s stepson Iullus Antonius, after the appropriate time of mourning).

    Iullus as Julia’s ATL second husband is in no way ASB as: a) Julia now is quite away from the power so Agrippa has no reason for divorcing Marcella and marrying her b) Livia has no interest in Julia as daughter-in-law as the actual weddings/engagements of her sons keep them much closer to the power than a wedding to Julia c) in OTL Iullus married Marcella Maior exactly in this period after her divorce from Agrippa
    SeaCambrian, Atamolos and Xenophonte like this.
  3. Atamolos Pontifex, princeps, and augustus

    Dec 22, 2014
    The island from Lost
    When I said civil war, I did not mean between Marcellus and Agrippa. Marcellus did not have a political constituency of his own that could have posed any tangible threat to Agrippa. I more meant that it might be possible for a senatorial faction to emerge backing Tiberius and Drusus against Agrippa, as Agrippa himself was never accepted by the nobility. The traditional patricians by this point had been heavily depleted in number by the civil wars and proscriptions, but a sizable faction of senators and equites still remembered their loyalties to Antony, and with Drusus married to Antony's daughter, he and Iulus would be natural figureheads for any new senatorial opposition to Agrippa. There were still powerful men among the senate like Domitius Ahenobarbus, Crassus Dives, and Sentius Saturninus whom would be liable to take sides in the ensuing struggle, since it is doubtful that any of the remaining imperial men (Agrippa, Tiberius, Drusus, Marcellus, and Iulus) would have been able to secure the unwavering political domination that Augustus was able to master. It's also worth noting that Lepidus was still alive at this point as well, and his children and nephews were heavily intermarried with the extended imperial family through Augustus' first wife Scribonia, and thus had considerable leverage on the imperial family in his own right.
    Xenophonte likes this.
  4. wwbgdiaslt Well-Known Member

    Feb 9, 2018
    What If ...

    Ernest, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and his wife managed to produce children - let's say two sons (Eduard, and Johann) - how might history alter?

    The first thought that I had was that Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh might have been permitted by his mother to accept the Greek crown in the absence of him being the designated heir to Ernest. With Alfred as King Alvertos of the Hellenes (using the Hellenic version of one of his middle names), how does Greece fare in Europe with much closer British ties?

    Might the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha brothers find themselves married to their British cousins (say Eduard born 1842, Johann born 1844) such as Princess Alice, who married the Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine IOTL, or Princess Helena.

    If Alice married Eduard (the more attractive marriage for the purpose of butterflys), that means the Grand Duke and Tsar Nicholas II both end up with different wives, and the situation developing in Russia might have a slightly different outcome - TTL Alexei might not have haemophilia, and Rasputin may not get his claws into the Tsarina.
    King_Arthur likes this.
  5. isabella Well-Known Member

    Mar 22, 2012
    Tiberius is Agrippa son-in-law, Drusus (and Ahenobarbus) his brother-in-law and Livia most likely support Agrippa, so a civil war is pretty unlikely. Mark Antony’s inheritance at this point is still poisoned and Drusus and Iullus know better than get involved against Agrippa (plus neither is power hungry). A more likely scenario see Agrippa dying around his OTL death date (or maybe earlier), possibly poisoned and the remaining men of the family of Augustus (stepsons Tiberius and Drusus and son-in-law Iullus) restoring the Republic.
    Atamolos likes this.
  6. Marse Lee Well-Known Member

    Sep 23, 2017
    So I just started a thread on this question, but figured I'd ask the people here as well, if you don't mind. I've recently become interested in colonial history and was wondering if anyone knows of any interesting PODs where we could have seen a very different colonization of the New World. I recently read Witch0Winter's "Where Hearts Were Entertaining June" and in that TL you end up with a British Brazil. I was wondering if anyone has any other interesting ideas where we could end up with Spanish Canada or something like that. Thanks.
  7. Yama951 Well-Known Member

    Jul 21, 2016
    I wonder if it's possible for there to be a world where the monarchies follow socialist economics and the revolutionary nations follow capitalist economics.

    Maybe the POD is in the creation and spread of guild and Christian socialism instead of feudalism while supporting the divine right of kings. It would evolve into a sort of 'enlighten monarchist protector of the common people' ideal. Then alt!American and French revolutions develop a successful social and market libertarian like nation and one that collapse into a dictatorship that was vanquished by a coalition of socialist monarchies.

    I think alt!socialism would be called communalism instead.
  8. Apares New Member

    Apr 21, 2018
    • 851:
      • Charles the Bald dies an untimely death shortly after the Battle of Jengland-Beslé, leaving West Francia to a succession crisis effectively splitting the realm in two. [The PoD of this timeline]

      • Neustrian nobles are forming a regency council around Louis the Stammerer while Lothar II tries to place the regency under his control.

      • Louis II, son of Louis the German, invades Aquitania to claim the wealthy region for himself.

      • Gauzbert, Count of Maine gets killed by Lambert II in the outskirts of Le Mans.
    • 852:
      • The Treaty of Quierzy confirms the regency council under the control of Lothar II with the help of Lambert II of Nantes.

      • The Battle of Dordogne proves to be a decisive victory for Louis II. The Kingdom of Aquitania effectively gains independence from West Francia.

      • Erispöe is able to defeat Salaün, his son Conan is confirmed to be the heir to the practically independent Breton kingdom.

      • The Treaty of Orléans confirms the dissolution of West Francia.
    • 856:
      • Holy Roman Emperor Lothar dies. The Treaty of Liége splits Middle Francia among his sons creating an even more complex inter-generational conflict between the Carolingians.
    • 857:
      • The German Carolingian branch under Louis the German and his son Louis I of Aquitania invade the Kingdom of Burgundy after a court in Arles invited him to depose the de facto rule of Gerard de Roussillon.

      • The death of Teutberga after her ordeal by boiling water led to the reluctantly accepted marriage between Lothar II and Waldrada. Lothar II will die heirless in a different world, in another time.
    • 858:
      • The Treaty of Melun deposes young Louis the Stammerer, the only son of Charles the Bald who was able to secure a throne, and confirms the rule of Lothar II over Neustria. The Neustrian succession crisis ends, however many disaffected nobles continue to rebel against the incompetent Lothar II.

      • Lambert II of Nantes is named missus dominicus by Lothar II and is given the duchy of Maine.

      • Louis the German invades Lotharingia and Neustria hoping to restore Louis the Stammerer to the Neustrian throne.
    • 859:
      • The Wonder of Macon stops the German advance into Burgundian possessions. This event will later become the origin myth of the Lotharingian and Neustrian kingdoms. Louis the German and Louis of Aquitania promise to not invade Lothar’s realms again.
    • 865:
      • The Division of Auxerre divides the Kingdom of Burgundy between Louis the German, Louis of Aquitania, Lothar II, and Holy Roman Emperor Louis of Italy after the death of epileptic Charles of Burgundy.
    • 871:
      • Though Wessex managed to contain the Vikings by defeating them at Ashdown in 871, a second invading army landed, leaving the Anglo-Saxons on a defensive footing.
    • 872:
      • Harald Fairhair unites Norway at the Battle of Hafrsfjord.
      • Iceland sees its first Norse settlements.
    • 880:
      • Carloman becomes both King of Germany and Holy Roman Emperor after Louis II of Italy abdicates in favour of him. Lothar II fails to challenge his claim after ambitious Pope Gregory V (Benedeto de Vio of Gaeta, successor to Pope Adrian II [the last pope to have something in common with the popes IOTL]) sided with Carloman instead of Hugh, son of Lothair.
    • 895:
      • Lothar II dies. His realm is split between his sons Hugh I of Neustria and Odo I of Lotharingia as their other family members in Aquitania and Germany are preoccupied with constant raids from Northmen and Saracens.

      • The Magyars arrive in the Carpathian basin and are starting to raid in Croatia, East Francia and Italy.

      • Great Moravia briefly regained control over the emerging Bohemian principality upon Bořivoj's death in 888/890 until, in 895, his son Spytihněv together with the Slavník prince Witizla swore allegiance to the East Frankish king Carloman in Regensburg.
    • 896:
      • Hugh I of Neustria (Hugh the Ruthless) is killed after a scheme involving both Lambert III of Maine and his younger brother Odo I of Lotharingia. Odo I is proclaimed to be the King of Neustria.

      • Carloman I dies after a stroke. His older, yet illegitimate son Arnulf is rallying around in Germany to proclaim himself ruler of East Francia, while his younger legitimate brother Charles assumes the title of Holy Roman Emperor and king of Italy.
    • 898:
      • Svatopluk II is able to capture his brother and current king of Great Moravia Mojmir II with Bavarian assistance.

      • King Alfred the Great makes his eldest son Edward the Elder co-ruler of Wessex in preparation for his accession to the English throne.
    • 899:
      • King Charles of Italy enlists the support of the Magyars to raid Bavaria. They overrun the Styria and Carinthia all the way to Salzburg. Arnulf, fighting a civil war against the Saxon princes, assembles a large army against the Magyars and confronts them near the Danube River. Daunted at the strong force, Árpád (head of the confederation of the Hungarian tribes) offers to make peace and restore much of what they've taken, if they are permitted to leave Bavaria unmolested. Arnulf agrees. The Magyars leave to raid Charles’ kingdom instead.

      • Arnulf dies after a stroke. The Brunonids lead by Bruno who escaped an early death in 880, is elected by other East Frankish nobles King of East Francia as Bruno I of Germany which is denied by both Pope Boniface V, King Charles of Italy and Lothair III of Lotharingia. Lothair III prepares to invade East Francia to put his son Charles to the German throne.
    • 900:
      • Atenulf I, Lombard prince of Capua, conquers the Duchy of Benevento. He deposes Duke Radelchis II and unites the two southern Lombard duchies in Mezzogiorno(Southern Italy). The Byzantines offer a strategic alliance to Atenulf who directs a campaign against the Saracens. They have establish themselves on the banks of the Garigliano River. From here, Arab warbands launch frequent raids in Campania.

      • Lothair III crosses the Rhine at Cologne and invades East France and finds support in the German clergy. He takes major Rhenish cities forcing Bruno I to capitulate. The latter is pardoned and restored as the duke of Saxony, Lothair III becomes King of Germany. Louis [the Child], son of Arnulf, becomes duke of Bavaria.

      • Lothair III’s realm over much of Western Europe begins to disintegrate as the nobility and clergy gain more autonomy.
    • 911:
      • Louis I’s son Louis II [Hugh died during his father’s reign] abdicates heirless after his wife wasn’t able to bear children and after his decreasing health has started to affect his political life. After a short squabble between various Aquitanian nobles and Odo I, the latter was able to become King of Aquitania with the support from the Ramnulfids who reside in wealthy Gascony. Odo I is however struck with a diarrhoeal disease during the end of his unusual Christmas campaign and dies the following year. Lothair III becomes the sole king of Neustria, Aquitania, Germany and Lotharingia.

      • Wipert I of Maine, the de facto viceroy of Neustria, and Rollo, leader of the Vikings, sign a peace agreement (Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte). In return for his homage and conversion to Christianity, Rollo becomes a vassal and is made Count of Rouen. The duchy of Normandy is created.
    • 922:
      • Louis IV of Italy passes away. His only child Ratold is an illegitimate child born by an unnamed concubine and too young to effectively rule. The Lotharingian branch reaches out to Italy, and with the support of both Pope Sergius III and the Duke of Spoleto, Guy V, a Widonid a related to the Lambertians in Neustria, and reunites the Carolingian Empire. A civil war breaks out in Northern Italy though as the Tuscans under Adalbert and Lombards oppose the Lotharingian king.

      • After many court intrigues and the assassination of Burchard, Count of Raetia, and the death of Solomon III, bishop of Constance, the Alaholfings under Erchanger II are able to create the stem duchy of Swabia.
    • 924:
      • After two of his three sons rebel against his rule, Lothair III fears that his reunited realm may share the same fate as the Carolingian Empire under Louis the Pious. Although limited, Primogeniture is introduced into the empire, much to the dismay of local nobles and Lothair IV and Henry I. A younger son, Hugh, is born over the course of this year.
      • Margrave Adalbert of Tuscany is imprisoned and blinded by Lothair III.
      • Lotharingia is split into two duchies, Upper and Lower Lorraine after Wigeric of Lotharingia died without an heir. Erenfried II, son of Count Eberhard of Bonngau received Lower Lorraine while Upper Lorraine was given to capable Rudolph, son of the illegitimate child of Louis II of Italy, Peter.
    • 927:
      • Lothair III falls ill after trying to push the Saracens away from Napoli. Fearing death, he hastily put together a succession testimony which saw the Carolingian empire split in four, with Charles III as king of Italy and Holy Roman Emperor. The three other subordinate realms (Germany, Neustria under Hugh the Child and Aquitania) fail to recognize him as the master over the four kingdoms.
      • Æthelstan conquers the Danelaw, thus uniting England for the first time.
    • 928:
      • At the urgings of Arnoul of Tours, the Neustrians choose Wipert of Nantes as their king, prompting war with the stronger claimant, Hugh the Child, son of former emperor Lothair III the Great and his regent Guy V of Spoleto, distantly related to Wipert.

      • Sunyer, Count of Barcelona, declines to swear fealty to Henry I as King of Aquitania, he was motivated by Henry's failure to address Sunyer's petitions to Henry for assistance against Muslim incursions.
    • 929:
      • After the unsuccessful attempt of Guy V to seize Rheims with the help of Herbert II of Vermandois, Archbishop Artald of Rheims declares his support for Wipert and urges Pope Leo VI to excommunicate both Guy V, Hugh the Child and Richwin of Straßburg who declared his support for Hugh the Child. Wipert declares Richwin deposed and installs Hugh, son of Richard of Autun as new archbishop of Straßburg while Artald was forced to abdicate after Guy’s army began sieging the city.

      • Emir Abd-al-Rahman III of Córdoba proclaims himself caliph and creates the Caliphate of Córdoba. He breaks his allegiance to, and ties with, the Fatimid and Abbasid caliphs.

      • Vratislaus' son Wenceslaus, who ruled from 921, was already accepted as head of the Bohemian tribal union; however, he had to cope with the enmity of his neighbour Duke Arnulf of Bavaria and his mighty ally, the Carolingian king Lothair I of Germany. Wenceslaus maintained his ducal authority by submitting to King Lothair in 929, whereafter he was murdered by his brother Boleslaus.
    • 931:
      • Pope Leo VI excommunicates Hugh the Child, Guy V of Spoleto and Richwin of Straßburg after their refusal to relinquish the Archbishopric of Rheims back to Artald. Later that year, Wipert of Maine captures Paris. Hugh the Child is poisoned and killed and Richwin escapes to Germany, and Wipert is crowned Wipert I of Neustria, ending the Carolingian dynasty in Neustria.
    • 934:
      • Eirik I Bloodaxe is defeated by his brothers Olaf Geirstadalf and Haakon during the Battle of Haugar, destroying the united kingdom of Norway. Eirik I flees to Orkney.

      • Wipert I of Maine is assassinated after years of grappling with the pro-Carolingian faction. Before his son can reach Paris, the dukes of Neustria proclaim Wipert's close adviser, Godfrey, Duke of Upper Lorraine, a Rudolphian, as the new King. Many of the electors refuse to recognize him, including Duke Adalhard II of Lower Lorraine.
    • 935:
      • Duke Boleslaus of Bohemia starts conquering the adjacent lands of Moravia and Silesia.

      • Adalhard II of Lower Lorraine invites King Lothair I of Germany to reconquer Neustria. He organizes his forces in Utrecht, but he is struck by a stroke and became incapable of speech, essentially rendering his campaign against Godfrey impossible.
    • 936:
      • Eirik I Bloodaxe is given Northumbria as a subkingdom of England after he promised to pay homage to Æthelstan. Æthelstan hoped to gain him as ally against the Norse in Dublin and the Scots.
    • 940:
      • Eirik I Bloodaxe raids the coast of the Danelaw hoping to be able to raise some funds in order to retake Norway. This and other prior raids lead Æthelstan to denounce his kingship.

      • Eirik I is murdered by a Northumbrian nobleman, probably after Æthelstan ordered his assassination.

      • Sunyer, Count of Barcelona, is in dire need of allies. After various efforts, he is able to sign a marriage pact with García Sánchez I of Pamplona who marries Sunyer’s daughter Adelaide. Caliph Abd ar-Rahman III sents multiple envoys to urge both Sunyer and García to cancel this marriage, but is defeated by a Hispanian force during the Battle of Tàrrega. Both are however still paying homage to Córdoba.

    Thoughts so far? Inconsistencies? Any proposals? Are some things too ASBy?
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  9. redjirachi Well-Known Member

    Sep 19, 2018
    What if the Nullification Crisis turns really ugly? What would the effects of this earlier, not about slavery Civil War be afterwards(I'm pretty sure Jackson would make true on his promise to behead Calhoun). On the subject of the Civil War, I want to know what the impact of a Pyrhhic Confederacy Victory, where the country wins but falls apart as a third world country and has to reintegrate itself in about 20 years. Besides the obvious of a much worse dynamic between North and South than IOTL post-Civil War
  10. Count of Crisco Pithy remark here.

    Jun 25, 2015
    Earth third rock from the sun .
    Regarding the American Civil war, which battle or campaign would be the most likely to result in an independent Confederacy. Gettysburg is often touted as the battle that lost the war for the CSA, but to me it seems like if Lee had won that battle it would have resulted in little as the Army of Virginia was already operating on essentially a scouting mission not a proper invasion of Union territory. I wonder if the Wilderness could have been the battle? Lee very nearly pulled a Cannae and encircled the Union army and destroyed it. If this had happened would it have given the CSA the room it needed to breath? Or paved the way for recognition from one or more foreign states? I know there may be other battles, but these are just the ones I know of off the top of my head.
  11. Kaiser Julius Well-Known Member

    Feb 21, 2017
  12. TheNerd_ Noobie History Entusiast

    Mar 7, 2018
    Why was Charles of Hungary excluded from Neapolitan succession?
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
  13. Wolttaire Well-Known Member

    Aug 4, 2018
    How many people in 1840 or 1850 or 1855 believe a civil war was a coming?
    Ironshark likes this.
  14. Chrispi Byzantine Logothete

    Feb 11, 2004
    Constantinople, Capital of the World
    Joseph Smith Jr comes to mind immediately.
    Wolttaire likes this.
  15. Devoid New Member

    Sep 29, 2018
    How did the navies of France, Spain, and Britain compare to each in 1756, and how much could any of them afford to invest into them?
  16. HeX Self-Proclaimed Disney Expert

    Sep 21, 2018
    Disneyland, U.S.A.
    What might happen if Aaron Burr actually managed to spark a real conflict in Louisiana in the early 1800s, either in a bid for secession from the United States or an invasion of Spanish Mexico, both of which were rumored? I'm not asking what would happen if he were successful--I highly doubt that he could be in regards to either event--but just what would be the outcome if shots were fired as opposed to him and his men getting picked up by American troops on their way South without doing anything but discussing the idea of secession?
    Andrew Boyd likes this.
  17. Spelf Habsburgs and Hot Dogs

    Oct 5, 2013
    Albany, New York
    Is US Naval strength a bit undersold around here or is it just me? Research by John Houghton indicates the following in 1836 compared to other secondary powers:

    United States:
    12 ships of the line (5 close to completion), 18 frigates (9 close to completion)

    9 ships of the line, 25 frigates; a few of these were acquired from France ca. 1815 and were in poor condition

    3 ships of the line, 5 frigates (one close to completion)

    12 ships of the line, 7 frigates

    Obviously the US isn’t going toe to toe with the UK or France at this point, but it seems as if it would have not too much of a problem dispatching Spain if they decided to go to war in that period. It’s worth noting that unlike most other navies - of which about half of these ships are ca. 1780s vintage - the US built a majority of its ships in the last fifteen years, not only giving them newer ships but a demonstrated ability to build.

    The reason I post this is that I find there’s a general casual consensus that the US was barking up the wrong tree with its Cuba schemes during the period; to me it seems an even more imbalanced situation than the later 1898 war, and that the only thing that would save Spain is arbitration from the UK and France, which I admit may be likely but would still see territorial gains on behalf of the United States.
  18. Spelf Habsburgs and Hot Dogs

    Oct 5, 2013
    Albany, New York

    Source for the above.

    I think a lot of the tendency to downplay the US naval capacity in the period probably has to do with the (fair) reaction to the “US Conquers Everything” trope that’s pretty prevalent in the 19th century alternate history scene. It’s true that the United States wasn’t the world power it would grow to be later - and it shouldn’t be represented as such - but it could basically go toe to toe with any other secondary power of the time. I would add the only time this isn’t really true is probably ca. 1870s as it didn’t modernize its navy, but that’s based on my reading of stuff around here and may require more research
  19. Count of Crisco Pithy remark here.

    Jun 25, 2015
    Earth third rock from the sun .
    If I recall, no idea where it comes from, the USN had the ships yes. But few of them spent much time at sea. The navy also did not have the funding properly man them and also had few officers to command them. It also would likely be an issue that the US fleet rarely practiced the tactics that would be used in a fleet action, in a hypothetal war with Spain the US ships would likely make some hilarious blunders. Eventually they would learn, and sheer weight of numbers would likely still hand them a victory. But it would be interesting to see regardless.
    Spelf likes this.
  20. piratedude Pirate Lord of the Great Lakes

    Sep 8, 2017
    Any idea what proportion of woodland was managed in the middle ages (circa 1300 to be specific) vs what was left unmanaged