Miscellaneous <1900 (Alternate) History Thread

[ordinarylittleme]

Madeleine did not die as child as she was married and almost 17 years old…

In any case: if Charlotte lived she would marry Charles V, to which she was long promised, unless the Emperor decided to break the engagement and marry Isabella of Portugal as OTL because he was tired to wait for his bride. If Charlotte do not married Charles V she would be sent to Scotland in 1530/2 and that would mean who Madeleine will either remain unmarried or marry to the Duke of Lorraine or maybe Antoine of Bourbon, Duke of Vendôme (who was the first Prince of Blood)

Madeleine died at 16 which is...the age of a child...by literally any definition, married or not...
If Charlotte lived, Charles would NOT marry her for the same reason he did not marry IOTL's Mary I: she is far too young. So he will wed Isabella of Portugal and pair off his son to Charlotte...Madeleine as Duchess of Vendome would be interesting though...

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Are we talking 'surviving but still sickly' or 'healthy and thriving' here? Because that seems kind of important IMO, esp. for Madeleine, who had famously fragile health. If she's well-known to be in good-health, then her father has very little reason to hesitate holding up his end of the bargain for James V, king of Scots (who had been promised a French king's daughter, IIRC, and Madeleine was the one on-offer). In which case, she moves to Scotland early and James V could amass himself a reasonably big family (butterflying the War of the Rough Wooing or anything like it).

If Madeleine still appears sickly, however, and Francis will be very reluctant to send Madeleine to Scotland. James will probably still insist on the marriage as he did OTL, and since Madeleine has to survive as-per the POD, she's going to survive longer there than she did OTL. But she'll be barely hanging on, in any case. She may be too sickly to consummate the marriage, but even if she does, the odds aren't looking good for children. There's a not insignificant chance the Hamiltons succeed the Scottish throne ITTL.

I don't know enough about what life Charlotte was intended to lead to say much about her.

Hm, Charlotte wasn't sickly IOTL, so she is probably healthy and thriving. Madeleine...well she just needs to live past 16, so it's up to you how fragile she is. (Though IOTL she was ridiculously prone to illness, god only knows why James wanted to marry her).

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

god only knows why James wanted to marry her

Status. It shows that the King of Scots (a royal title lacking in prestige if there ever was one) is equal in rank to the King of France himself and worthy of the hand of his daughter (plus, you know, the treaty which had promised James a French bride).

James V was the first Scottish king to physically add arches to his crown after James III stamped them on the coinage, signifying his wish to be considered an emperor in his own domain (a step done rather late in Scotland compared to England, as Henry V had been the first to adopt it there about a century earlier). James had an ambition to increase the prestige of the Stewarts, something that marrying Madeline would help to achieve.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Status. It shows that the King of Scots (a royal title lacking in prestige if there ever was one) is equal in rank to the King of France himself and worthy of the hand of his daughter (plus, you know, the treaty which had promised James a French bride).

James V was the first Scottish king to physically add arches to his crown after James III stamped them on the coinage, signifying his wish to be considered an emperor in his own domain (a step done rather late in Scotland compared to England, as Henry V had been the first to adopt it there about a century earlier). James had an ambition to increase the prestige of the Stewarts, something that marrying Madeline would help to achieve.

But Francis had other daughters besides Madeleine so therefore it is not known why HER specifically...besides his genuine interest in her, but then again, how often do kings get to wed the one they like? (Henry VIII, his uncle, is one prominent exception and even he had to make political matches such as Anne of Cleves)

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

But Francis had other daughters besides Madeleine so therefore it is not known why HER specifically...besides his genuine interest in her, but then again, how often do kings get to wed the one they like? (Henry VIII, his uncle, is one prominent exception and even he had to make political matches such as Anne of Cleves)

I'm pretty sure the other daughters were promised elsewhere; Madeline was the only one not otherwise betrothed--this was his last shot if he didn't want to feel slighted. I personally don't think his 'interest' was all that genuine. James had already agreed to marry someone else at the time, IIRC, and his 'infatuation' with Madeline was probably just a guise to switch gears again (and it worked).

 

[isabella]

Madeleine died at 16 which is...the age of a child...by literally any definition, married or not...
If Charlotte lived, Charles would NOT marry her for the same reason he did not marry IOTL's Mary I: she is far too young. So he will wed Isabella of Portugal and pair off his son to Charlotte...Madeleine as Duchess of Vendome would be interesting though...

Charles V’s son will be far too young for Charlotte (and barely old enough for not having an excessive age gap with Marguerite). And I can guarantee you who at that time you were NOT a child at 16 years old. On Charles NOT marrying Charlotte, I would NOT be so sure as much will depend from the dowry she would bring, specially after Pavia

 

[isabella]

Hm, Charlotte wasn't sickly IOTL, so she is probably healthy and thriving. Madeleine...well she just needs to live past 16, so it's up to you how fragile she is. (Though IOTL she was ridiculously prone to illness, god only knows why James wanted to marry her).

Status. It shows that the King of Scots (a royal title lacking in prestige if there ever was one) is equal in rank to the King of France himself and worthy of the hand of his daughter (plus, you know, the treaty which had promised James a French bride).

James V was the first Scottish king to physically add arches to his crown after James III stamped them on the coinage, signifying his wish to be considered an emperor in his own domain (a step done rather late in Scotland compared to England, as Henry V had been the first to adopt it there about a century earlier). James had an ambition to increase the prestige of the Stewarts, something that marrying Madeline would help to achieve.

But Francis had other daughters besides Madeleine so therefore it is not known why HER specifically...besides his genuine interest in her, but then again, how often do kings get to wed the one they like? (Henry VIII, his uncle, is one prominent exception and even he had to make political matches such as Anne of Cleves)

I'm pretty sure the other daughters were promised elsewhere; Madeline was the only one not otherwise betrothed--this was his last shot if he didn't want to feel slighted. I personally don't think his 'interest' was all that genuine. James had already agreed to marry someone else at the time, IIRC, and his 'infatuation' with Madeline was probably just a guise to switch gears again (and it worked).

Madeleine’s elder sisters had both died in infancy and her last sister was still too young for marrying, meaning who Madeleine was the ONLY daughter of Francis available. If Francis had another daughter he would likely give her to James, who would then not meet Madeleine.
I think James and Madeleine were really in love, as failing for a young, beautiful and sweet girl would not be hard for him.
While James had accepted the match with Mary of Bourbon, I doubt who he was fully convinced of it at the time of his journey in France (who was done for meeting Mary and remove his lingering doubts) and then he was smitten by Madeleine…

 

[ordinarylittleme]

I'm pretty sure the other daughters were promised elsewhere; Madeline was the only one not otherwise betrothed--this was his last shot if he didn't want to feel slighted. I personally don't think his 'interest' was all that genuine. James had already agreed to marry someone else at the time, IIRC, and his 'infatuation' with Madeline was probably just a guise to switch gears again (and it worked).

Francis' youngest daughter, Margaret was NOT promised to anyone and she only married in her late thirties when her brother Henry was king...

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Charles V’s son will be far too young for Charlotte (and barely old enough for not having an excessive age gap with Marguerite). And I can guarantee you who at that time you were NOT a child at 16 years old. On Charles NOT marrying Charlotte, I would NOT be so sure as much will depend from the dowry she would bring, specially after Pavia

If Charles weds Isabella earlier, say in 1517, the son will be of perfect age for Charlotte...but exactly what dowry can Charlotte offer that Charles would want?

 

[30PrincesAndAKing]

Francis' youngest daughter, Margaret was NOT promised to anyone and she only married in her late thirties when her brother Henry was king...

But she'd only be 7 years old during the 1530s when James is first going wife-shopping, and would have just barely turned 13 when James makes his visit to France in 1536. She's too young for him; why would he pursue her when there's an older sister of more suitable age?

 

[isabella]

Francis' youngest daughter, Margaret was NOT promised to anyone and she only married in her late thirties when her brother Henry was king...

Margaret was 13, way too young for marrying and James wanted a bride now… specially as he had still an imperial match on the table to Christina of Denmark (or possibly to Maria of Viseu)

If Charles weds Isabella earlier, say in 1517, the son will be of perfect age for Charlotte...but exactly what dowry can Charlotte offer that Charles would want?

Charles V was NOT interested at ALL in marrying Isabella in OTL (he REFUTED to marry her at least twice) and favored a French or English match over her so the only bride who Charles can marry so early is Mary Tudor.
Charlotte, specially after Pavia, can very well bring him all the lost/contested lands of the Burgundian inheritance and her father’s rights over Milan and Naples (and at least part of Savoy)

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Margaret was 13, way too young for marrying and James wanted a bride now… specially as he had still an imperial match on the table to Christina of Denmark (or possibly to Maria of Viseu)


Charles V was NOT interested at ALL in marrying Isabella in OTL (he REFUTED to marry her at least twice) and favored a French or English match over her so the only bride who Charles can marry so early is Mary Tudor.
Charlotte, specially after Pavia, can very well bring him all the lost/contested lands of the Burgundian inheritance and her father’s rights over Milan and Naples (and at least part of Savoy)

Mary as Holy Roman Empress will be interesting...

 

[FouDuRoy]

WI Charlotte and Madeleine of France, daughters of Francis I, didn't die as children. @FouDuRoy

Why only Charlotte and Madeleine? What about Louise?

In any case, we already talked about this question here:

WI: Charlotte, daughter to Francis I of France, lives to adulthood?

Charlotte was the second child of Francis and Claude, who died young. What if she hadn't died young?

www.alternatehistory.com

We had come to the conclusion that Charlotte would likely marry James V. Likely, they would have a son who would be raised in Scotland, would be Catholic and would have good chances to manage to prevent the rise of Protestantism in Scotland.

As for Madeleine, it is more uncertain. I had suggested a Portuguese marriage (maybe with Luis, Duke of Beja) which may prevent the end of the Aviz and the Iberian Union. However, it was only wild speculation and I don't know how likely it is.

Madeleine will either remain unmarried or marry to the Duke of Lorraine or maybe Antoine of Bourbon, Duke of Vendôme (who was the first Prince of Blood)

The Duke of Lorraine? You mean Francis I of Lorraine? Why wouldn't he marry Christina of Denmark as in OTL?
As for Antoine, I don't know.
Antoine was next in line after the Valois (but he was not First Prince of the Blood as this title did not exist yet and was invented by Henry IV) but it was not that important at this time as there was little to no reason to imagine male Valois would die out.
Even with Jeanne d'Albret, her parents thought Antoine was not important enough for her. (It is true that Jeanne was the heiress of a throne in her own right but said throne was associated only to a very small portion of realm, the essential part of Navarre having already been conquered by Spain and, even for keeping this small portion, the kings of Navarre were dependant on the kings of France.)
I don't see how a marriage to Antoine may help the Valois' policy and alliances.
If Antoine marries Madeleine anyway and has children with her, said children would be raised as Catholics and the succession crisis after Henry III would be avoided. Of course, butterflies are likely to save the male Valois anyway.

Francis' youngest daughter, Margaret was NOT promised to anyone and she only married in her late thirties when her brother Henry was king...

Marguerite had been promised to the future Philip II but this engagement was broken when war restarted between their fathers.
She had also been considered for Henry VIII after Jane Seymour's death.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Why only Charlotte and Madeleine? What about Louise?

In any case, we already talked about this question here:

WI: Charlotte, daughter to Francis I of France, lives to adulthood?

Charlotte was the second child of Francis and Claude, who died young. What if she hadn't died young?

www.alternatehistory.com

We had come to the conclusion that Charlotte would likely marry James V. Likely, they would have a son who would be raised in Scotland, would be Catholic and would have good chances to manage to prevent the rise of Protestantism in Scotland.

As for Madeleine, it is more uncertain. I had suggested a Portuguese marriage (maybe with Luis, Duke of Beja) which may prevent the end of the Aviz and the Iberian Union. However, it was only wild speculation and I don't know how likely it is.


The Duke of Lorraine? You mean Francis I of Lorraine? Why wouldn't he marry Christina of Denmark as in OTL?
As for Antoine, I don't know.
Antoine was next in line after the Valois (but he was not First Prince of the Blood as this title did not exist yet and was invented by Henry IV) but it was not that important at this time as there was little to no reason to imagine male Valois would die out.
Even with Jeanne d'Albret, her parents thought Antoine was not important enough for her. (It is true that Jeanne was the heiress of a throne in her own right but said throne was associated only to a very small portion of realm, the essential part of Navarre having already been conquered by Spain and, even for keeping this small portion, the kings of Navarre were dependant on the kings of France.)
I don't see how a marriage to Antoine may help the Valois' policy and alliances.
If Antoine marries Madeleine anyway and has children with her, said children would be raised as Catholics and the succession crisis after Henry III would be avoided. Of course, butterflies are likely to save the male Valois anyway.


Marguerite had been promised to the future Philip II but this engagement was broken when war restarted between their fathers.
She had also been considered for Henry VIII after Jane Seymour's death.

Louise...that is a great question. If Louise lives into adulthood, perhaps she weds either a surviving Henry, Duke of Cornwall or Francis I, Duke of Lorraine? No clue. Madeleine being paired with Luis of Beja could work, certainly will ensure that Sebastian I has a successor...

 

[isabella]

Why only Charlotte and Madeleine? What about Louise?

In any case, we already talked about this question here:

WI: Charlotte, daughter to Francis I of France, lives to adulthood?

Charlotte was the second child of Francis and Claude, who died young. What if she hadn't died young?

www.alternatehistory.com

We had come to the conclusion that Charlotte would likely marry James V. Likely, they would have a son who would be raised in Scotland, would be Catholic and would have good chances to manage to prevent the rise of Protestantism in Scotland.

As for Madeleine, it is more uncertain. I had suggested a Portuguese marriage (maybe with Luis, Duke of Beja) which may prevent the end of the Aviz and the Iberian Union. However, it was only wild speculation and I don't know how likely it is.

Madeleine will NOT marry in Portugal. Francis will NOT allow that. With her health Lorraine and Vendome are the only realistic matches who he would plan for her.

The Duke of Lorraine? You mean Francis I of Lorraine? Why wouldn't he marry Christina of Denmark as in OTL?

Because if Francis offered first his daughter he is likely to accept.

As for Antoine, I don't know.
Antoine was next in line after the Valois (but he was not First Prince of the Blood as this title did not exist yet and was invented by Henry IV) but it was not that important at this time as there was little to no reason to imagine male Valois would die out.
Even with Jeanne d'Albret, her parents thought Antoine was not important enough for her. (It is true that Jeanne was the heiress of a throne in her own right but said throne was associated only to a very small portion of realm, the essential part of Navarre having already been conquered by Spain and, even for keeping this small portion, the kings of Navarre were dependant on the kings of France.)
I don't see how a marriage to Antoine may help the Valois' policy and alliances.
If Antoine marries Madeleine anyway and has children with her, said children would be raised as Catholics and the succession crisis after Henry III would be avoided. Of course, butterflies are likely to save the male Valois anyway.

Antoine would be the best fully domestic match available for her, if Francis do not let her marry outside his control. Surely is a better match than Beja who would be quite useless politically

Marguerite had been promised to the future Philip II but this engagement was broken when war restarted between their fathers.
She had also been considered for Henry VIII after Jane Seymour's death.

Marguerite was engaged to Philip for some time ONLY after Maria Manuela‘s death for what I remember …

 

[Semiramis]

I have more of a question than a WI but whatever. Would it theologically make sense for there to be a religion that's mix of Islam and Christianity? Like, believing in the Trinity but also believing that Muhammed was/is the true human prophet of Allah, because Jesus is Allah and so doesn't count?

 

[Arkenfolm]

I have more of a question than a WI but whatever. Would it theologically make sense for there to be a religion that's mix of Islam and Christianity? Like, believing in the Trinity but also believing that Muhammed was/is the true human prophet of Allah, because Jesus is Allah and so doesn't count?

No, it still falls into the problem of worshipping Jesus as God (forbidden in Islam) and also the problem that the Quran is adding to the word of God (forbidden in Christianity), not even considering how the content of the Quran contradicts the Bible. I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of syncreticism existed somewhere, at some time OTL but it's obviously heretical to people of either religion.

 

[FouDuRoy]

I have more of a question than a WI but whatever. Would it theologically make sense for there to be a religion that's mix of Islam and Christianity? Like, believing in the Trinity but also believing that Muhammed was/is the true human prophet of Allah, because Jesus is Allah and so doesn't count?

Such a mix would simply be a another religion.
There would be Christianity, there would be Islam and there would be this mix that would be a third religion.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

What if Mary, Queen of Scots died in infancy?

 

[VVD0D95]

What if Mary, Queen of Scots died in infancy?

Then the throne likely passes to the Earl of Arran, though the Earl of Lennox may contest his ascension due to the uncertainty of the legitimacy of one of Arran's predecessors marriage.