So basically the American intervention is going to have serious consequence. Oops.
Miranda's Dream. ¡Por una Latino América fuerte!.- A Gran Colombia TL
- Thread starter Red_Galiray
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1. Fantastic timeline!
2. I wonder how big Colombia's middle class is at this point?
3. You've mentioned that France is stronger than IOTL, do they have a larger population as of 1850? Like, say, 40-50 million?
4. Also, could we get a map of America that includes Mexico, Colombia, and the US?
2. I wonder how big Colombia's middle class is at this point?
3. You've mentioned that France is stronger than IOTL, do they have a larger population as of 1850? Like, say, 40-50 million?
4. Also, could we get a map of America that includes Mexico, Colombia, and the US?
Yeah. To be fair to the Americans, the government did not organize or give support to the Walker expedition in OTL, and they are not likely to support it directly ITTL either. Southerners cheered his way, though.
1. Thanks!
2. That's a difficult question... How do we define middle class? I'd say that independent farmers, skilled workers, and educated people (lawyers, physicians, etc.) belong to the middle class. Compared with the United States, there are many farm hands who could be considered indentured servants, or sharecroppers at best. They are overwhelmingly Black and Indigenous. In general, a middle class Colombian would be mestizo or white, would have certain economic independence, be literate, and live in cities or communities of some size. Farm hands would receive an average salary of 8 piastras per week, or some 400 per year (around 200 USD). This is less than what an unskilled laborer would receive in the US (300 USD per year), but life is also cheaper in Colombia. Skilled laborers could receive up to 25 piastras per week, or 1200 per year (around 600 USD), which is roughly the same as American skilled industrial laborer. Due to working in "useful industries" or owning their own property, middle-class Colombians would be able to vote, and as a result they have become a veritable political force. Still, I'd say they make around 25-30% of the Colombian population of 11 million.
3. Indeed. A more dynamic economy has resulted in higher French population. Their birthrate is smaller than that of their neighbors, but they have around 40 million people in 1850.
4. To be honest, I've been meaning to make such a map, but I haven't found the time. Fortunately, @Zoidberg12 made an awesome World Map! I'll try to make a map that includes each countries' important cities and territorial divisions.
I think that in TTL Gran Colombia reached 150 millions of habitants at the end of XX century. It is be possible that US in TTL don't have many more habitants than that.
I wonder why Central America doesn’t want to join Colombia. Colombia is a democratic and economically prosperous nation, and it would benefit both of them if Central America became part of them (Colombia gets more people for labor and more resources, while Central America gets a non corrupt government that will likely invest money to build industry in Central America and defend it with the military).
I think 200 to 250 million are likely for the United States. Their population is bigger than Colombia right now, and barring some Taiping-like disaster, it will remain bigger. They still receive many immigrants. It's true, however, that Mexican stability means no great wave of Latin American immigration, which will certainly result in a smaller population.
It's mostly their own nationalism. Their brief period as part of Mexico was not really pleasant. It isn't like Mexico oppressed them, and they were equal. It's just that Mexicans were more equal, and Mexican carpetbaggers monopolized political post, representation at Parliament, investment, and had most land. Like most nations of the age, they want to be independent and sovereign, and feel resentment towards both Colombian and Mexico.
So, i know it kinda veers away from the main focus of the timeline, so I don't really expect it to get its own chapter, but:
How's Canada doing? I see that they annexed my own beloved homeland of Wisconsin earlier in the timeline, and I'm just wondering whst home looks like
How's Canada doing? I see that they annexed my own beloved homeland of Wisconsin earlier in the timeline, and I'm just wondering whst home looks like
So, i know it kinda veers away from the main focus of the timeline, so I don't really expect it to get its own chapter, but:
How's Canada doing? I see that they annexed my own beloved homeland of Wisconsin earlier in the timeline, and I'm just wondering whst home looks like
Well, Wisconsin and Michigan were annexed after the War of 1814. They have a somewhat large Native American population because the British have allowed them to live there after expulsion from the American midwest. But they are starting to be pushed out as well by Canadian settlers. Britain is more amenable to reform because Liberalism as a whole is stronger, and since the US is much more antagonic, they have decided that they need to settle the land. As a result, a sort of homestead act was passed by Parliament, encouraging people to settle the territories. Since Eastern Canada has more land to settle, Western Canada is even more barren. In any case, the Great Lakes region is doing well. Without the Mississippi or the Hudson Canal, the main avenue for trade is the St. Lawrence, which has also resulted in a more populated Québec. Some Americans have also gone north, though they don't have any hopes of "pulling a Texas", especially because they barely defeated Mexico, a nation much weaker than mighty Britain. In any case, the Great Lake territories enjoy certain autonomy and are mainly agricultural, growing corn, hogs and wheat and shipping them through the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence to Britain. The result is that Britain isn't as dependant on the US when it comes to food supply (Argentinean wheat and meat also help).
Yeah Seems that means a wealthier canada long term with the mining and agriculture in winconsin.
Since Britain as the UP, as well as Wisconsin and Minnesota (we need a Greater Wisconsin province
) its important to remember that they also have the Copper, Iron and Lead ranges as well, which is going to be a big boost to industry and the economy in Canada.I wonder if Colombia is going to take advantage of the filibuster move to get Central America to be closer to them.
Well, I finished the map of the Mexican Empire and its 24 provinces in 1850!
The Mexican Empire is a constitutional monarchy governed by an Emperor or Empress, who has to obey the Constitution and faithfully execute the laws decreed by Parliament. The current Reigning House is the House of Iturbide-Borbón, founded by Agustin I in 1818. The current emperor is his grandson, Carlos I, though because he's underage his sister, Princess Isabel, is currently the Regent. The Emperor has some executive powers, including the capacity to veto bills, grant noble titles, name people to the Upper House of Parliament, and name the governor of each province. As a whole, Mexico is a centralized state, and the Emperor is the protector of the Constitution, the commander in-chief of the Navies and Armies, and the defender of the Catholic faith of the nation. Nonetheless, while those executive powers are technically still available, they were used only by Agustin I, and even then sparingly, with the exception of his capacity to name officials. From Agustin II onward, the Emperor became a more passive figure, leaving most of the business of governance to Parliament.
Parliament is the Legislative Power in Mexico. It's formed of two houses: the Lower House, or Cámara de Diputados, and the Upper House, or Consejo Imperial. Modeled after the British Parliament, most governance comes from the Deputies, who are popularly elected by the people. The Peers are named by the Emperor, and though some posts are hereditary, most of them are appointed at the start of a session of Parliament. The number of peers is somewhat small at around 100, roughly 4 per province, though the distribution is unequal. Peers can propose legislation and vote down the laws of the Deputies, but they usually go along with the opinion of the Deputies. During the reign of Agustin I, the Conseil was a conservative stronghold of military-men, landowners and Church authorities, which was used to prevent meaningful liberal or federalist reform. From Agustin II onwards, the Conseil lost importance and influence, and after the Mexican War peers were appointed in rough proportion with the electel members of the Deputies, that is, if a party won 55% of the seats in the Lower House, slightly more than half of the peers appointed would belong to that party. This effectively subjected the Peers to the opinions and control of the Deputies.
The Deputies, usually simply referred as Parliament due to them being the most important House, are elected by the people in direct elections. Originally, a system of electoral colleges elected the delegates of each province. A Parish Junta, made of males over 18 years old who had "honest occupations" and paid taxes, would meet and elect delegates to a Provincial Junta. The Provincial Delegates would have to be males of 25 years old with property. They would elect the Delegates to Parliament, who had to be at least 25 years old and have more property than a Provincial delegate. Since indentured farm workers, illiterate people, or indigenous peoples were not considered to be engaged in honest occupations, they were effectively disenfranchised. Following the war with the United States, reform took place allowing the people to directly elect the MPs of their constituency, but property requirements remained. Nonetheless, Parliament lowered these requirements, enfranchised soldiers and laborers, and passed laws requiring deputies to live in their constituency, resulting in a more democratic and representative parliament.
Each province is awarded at least 1 MP. An additional MP is given for every 50,000 people. Parliament currently has 264 deputies. Bills concerning taxes and the budget can only originate from the Deputies. Likewise, they are the only ones capable of impeaching officers or holding trials. The Consejo de Ministros, originally chosen by the Emperor, is subjected to the advice and consent of Parliament. As a result, the Emperor needs their approval to form a government. The Head of the Ministry, referred to as the Presidente del Consejo de Ministros (usually Prime Minister in English, for simplicity's sake) ruled alongside the Emperor in the first years of the Empire, but after Agustin I, he became the main Executive official in Mexico.
Nowadays, the Provincial Juntas (also elected directly, and usually with lower requirements) remain in session and are able to pass certain regulations, and also have some leeway when it comes to enforcing the laws of Parliament. However, they can't pass their own laws, and the ordinances of Parliament are supreme. Their main attribution is being able to "suggest" who should be governor. Starting on with the Regency, the Emperor followed these suggestions, which meant that Provinces were de facto able to elect their own governors.
Canada as a whole is probably going to be much stronger than OTL.
Most likely. Kind of "see? without us you'd be slaves!"
The Mexican Empire is a constitutional monarchy governed by an Emperor or Empress, who has to obey the Constitution and faithfully execute the laws decreed by Parliament. The current Reigning House is the House of Iturbide-Borbón, founded by Agustin I in 1818. The current emperor is his grandson, Carlos I, though because he's underage his sister, Princess Isabel, is currently the Regent. The Emperor has some executive powers, including the capacity to veto bills, grant noble titles, name people to the Upper House of Parliament, and name the governor of each province. As a whole, Mexico is a centralized state, and the Emperor is the protector of the Constitution, the commander in-chief of the Navies and Armies, and the defender of the Catholic faith of the nation. Nonetheless, while those executive powers are technically still available, they were used only by Agustin I, and even then sparingly, with the exception of his capacity to name officials. From Agustin II onward, the Emperor became a more passive figure, leaving most of the business of governance to Parliament.
Parliament is the Legislative Power in Mexico. It's formed of two houses: the Lower House, or Cámara de Diputados, and the Upper House, or Consejo Imperial. Modeled after the British Parliament, most governance comes from the Deputies, who are popularly elected by the people. The Peers are named by the Emperor, and though some posts are hereditary, most of them are appointed at the start of a session of Parliament. The number of peers is somewhat small at around 100, roughly 4 per province, though the distribution is unequal. Peers can propose legislation and vote down the laws of the Deputies, but they usually go along with the opinion of the Deputies. During the reign of Agustin I, the Conseil was a conservative stronghold of military-men, landowners and Church authorities, which was used to prevent meaningful liberal or federalist reform. From Agustin II onwards, the Conseil lost importance and influence, and after the Mexican War peers were appointed in rough proportion with the electel members of the Deputies, that is, if a party won 55% of the seats in the Lower House, slightly more than half of the peers appointed would belong to that party. This effectively subjected the Peers to the opinions and control of the Deputies.
The Deputies, usually simply referred as Parliament due to them being the most important House, are elected by the people in direct elections. Originally, a system of electoral colleges elected the delegates of each province. A Parish Junta, made of males over 18 years old who had "honest occupations" and paid taxes, would meet and elect delegates to a Provincial Junta. The Provincial Delegates would have to be males of 25 years old with property. They would elect the Delegates to Parliament, who had to be at least 25 years old and have more property than a Provincial delegate. Since indentured farm workers, illiterate people, or indigenous peoples were not considered to be engaged in honest occupations, they were effectively disenfranchised. Following the war with the United States, reform took place allowing the people to directly elect the MPs of their constituency, but property requirements remained. Nonetheless, Parliament lowered these requirements, enfranchised soldiers and laborers, and passed laws requiring deputies to live in their constituency, resulting in a more democratic and representative parliament.
Each province is awarded at least 1 MP. An additional MP is given for every 50,000 people. Parliament currently has 264 deputies. Bills concerning taxes and the budget can only originate from the Deputies. Likewise, they are the only ones capable of impeaching officers or holding trials. The Consejo de Ministros, originally chosen by the Emperor, is subjected to the advice and consent of Parliament. As a result, the Emperor needs their approval to form a government. The Head of the Ministry, referred to as the Presidente del Consejo de Ministros (usually Prime Minister in English, for simplicity's sake) ruled alongside the Emperor in the first years of the Empire, but after Agustin I, he became the main Executive official in Mexico.
Nowadays, the Provincial Juntas (also elected directly, and usually with lower requirements) remain in session and are able to pass certain regulations, and also have some leeway when it comes to enforcing the laws of Parliament. However, they can't pass their own laws, and the ordinances of Parliament are supreme. Their main attribution is being able to "suggest" who should be governor. Starting on with the Regency, the Emperor followed these suggestions, which meant that Provinces were de facto able to elect their own governors.
Since Britain as the UP, as well as Wisconsin and Minnesota (we need a Greater Wisconsin province
Canada as a whole is probably going to be much stronger than OTL.
Most likely. Kind of "see? without us you'd be slaves!"
I remember reading that it was originally called "Arisona" with an s by the Spanish. I deliberately decided to spell it that way to mark a difference from OTL.
From Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona):
Really is not clear the source of the name.
Plus Arizona in spanish sound like a force, Arida Zona(Zona Arida is the proper spelling, means Dessert/Dry Zone in spanish) i thought the gringos adopted, seems was older i thought
At the end of the day, it's just a difference in spelling, like Texas/Tejas. I like to leave details like this only to emphasize that this is, in fact, a different timeline than our own. By the way, here's the map of the US.
As a person from a nation that's been colonized by east and west, it's kinda funny to see Colombians and Americans seeing themselves as exceptional. I wonder how both nations will react if some Filipino or Burmese dissident writer scribbles some paragraphs on how the two should look themselves in a mirror and see how they're "not so different", especially when it comes to seeing themselves as exceptional or in swallowing native lands.
Any chance you make one of these with the Canadian provinces? Or whatever Canada is called in TTL.At the end of the day, it's just a difference in spelling, like Texas/Tejas. I like to leave details like this only to emphasize that this is, in fact, a different timeline than our own. By the way, here's the map of the US.
As a person from a nation that's been colonized by east and west, it's kinda funny to see Colombians and Americans seeing themselves as exceptional. I wonder how both nations will react if some Filipino or Burmese dissident writer scribbles some paragraphs on how the two should look themselves in a mirror and see how they're "not so different", especially when it comes to seeing themselves as exceptional or in swallowing native lands.
Yeah, that's it pretty much haha. At the end of the day it's the typical Victorian aptitude of "White saviors" (mestizo saviors?). Colombia and the US are not very different, as you note. Both are also hypocrites. Like, Colombia claims to be free of prejudice but it's actually pretty oppressive when it comes to its Native and Black population.
Not such a detailed map, but some time ago I made a rough map of Canadian provinces (yeah, it's still Canada).
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