Miranda's Dream. ¡Por una Latino América fuerte!.- A Gran Colombia TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Red_Galiray, Feb 15, 2016.

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  1. RandomWriterGuy Bernie Sanders Hindsight 2020

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    I don’t imagine Britain selling its Caribbean possessions for cheap if it does agree to sell them. And I do imagine that the annexation of French Caribbean islands is definitely gonna give Colombia prestige. Who knows they could abolish slavery there.
     
  2. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    At this time Slavery is already gone and the island themselves very empty but tempting target

    as say before, the only islands Colombia would target are trinidad and tobago, Jamaica is too british right now to get it and is not that important unlike trinidad, with trinidad, you've an open way to high atlantic
     
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  3. RandomWriterGuy Bernie Sanders Hindsight 2020

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    France abolished slavery in 1848, so yeah you have a point. Also, I can only imagine how high a price Britain would sell its possessions.
     
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  4. Soverihn Proud Tribalist

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    Bit too early to get Anglo Caribbean migration I think. They only really started moving out to the other islands in the 1860s becuase the sugar industry enter a bust phase at the time (and in the 1880s, straight up famine). We probably sped this up on the basis of much higher wages earlier on, but I feel it would be a decade until the real chain migration starts.

    As for Dominican Migration to Colombia, too early outside of middle and upper class traders who have an office in like, Caracas or so on. Country is too empty, sugar and tobacco too labor intensive to draw away peasants looking for jobs. And given the industrial heartland of North Venezuela-Central Colombia is starting to form the Cibao and Southeast will get demand for agricultural goods to feed the cities- mostly rice, yams, plantains, spices. I'd say veggies but that requires mountain farming and I'm doubtful it'd be economical to ship them from the highlands to the ports and off. Could be wrong.

    On the other hand, if you somehow get an enterprising Andean to export terrace farming techniques, theres plenty of potential.
     
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  5. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    Yeah seems the americas were more empty people remember at times, i know colombia did was very empty till 1900's and even them, colombian are always being city dwelers alongside the traditional peasants...
     
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  6. Red_Galiray En un pueblito al sur de Estados Unidos.

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    Well, I hate the CSA with a burning passion so under no terms will they be allowed to become and remain independent ITTL. Most Britons considered that getting involved would be useless and hard, and they disliked slavery. But a second Anglo-American War is possible. After all, both powers are at odds more often than in OTL, and Americans are very Anglophobic as a result of the War of 1814 and the Oregon Affair. The Colombians are focusing on the Spanish possessions first, but the French territories are on the list. As for the British, well, Jamaica is probably not an option but minor islands are.

    Those seem like reasonable objectives, but Cuba and Puerto Rico are bigger plums.

    Internal immigration is big too in Gran Colombia. Of course, the biggest movement is from the countryside to the cities, but people also migrate between states in search of better conditions or work. Hispaniola is the fastest growing state in part thanks to this immigration. The demand of labor is too big for Dominicans to immigrate to the mainland (el continente, los continentales, or also called the "Colombian Main"), though.

    Britain could sell them, but the price would be dear indeed.

    Trinidad and Tobago are on the list because an enemy with them could blockade Colombia easily.

    ITTL, French liberalism was way stronger so slavery was abolished in 1830.

    ITTL, the railroads, canals and rivers are advanced enough for food to be produced in Cundinamarca and shipped off to Hispaniola. Colombian tariffs are designed to keep American food out. So Cundinamarca, Boyaca and Magdalena are the center for food production for the entire Republic. If you meant farming in the mountains of Hispaniola itself, farming there does not make economic sense, and most railroads connect plantations with ports, so transportation in the interior is very bad.

    Very empty still!
     
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  7. generalurist Map Staring Expert

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    I still wonder if the reduced power of the free states in TTL will result in a Northern secession instead.
     
  8. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    Yeah that is why i consider as the biggest target in case relationship with britain goes south... as that is a shield against any navy, still the same with Cuba and PR, both independant neutralize that, still depends, for now things are fine, just any nation always should have plans for that.
     
  9. RandomWriterGuy Bernie Sanders Hindsight 2020

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    Have Guatemala and Haiti considered joining Colombia? And does Colombia have any interests in Guyana?
     
  10. Red_Galiray En un pueblito al sur de Estados Unidos.

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    For the moment the Anglo-Colombian relation is fine, so buying the islands is the better option.

    Guatemala has not. There was some interest immediately after independence, but it's evaporated by now. They want to be independent from both Colombia and Mexico.

    Haiti... is complicated. Some want that, but others want independence. Being an age of nationalism, many Haitians want their own nation too and consider their current status to be a form of degrading colonialism. As for the Colomboans themselves, they see an island with a mostly Black population as a foreign culture at best and an outright threat st worst. Being obsessed with the idea of Blancamiento, adding a Black nation to the Republic seems nonsensical. There's a lot of nasty nativist/racist hatr towards the Haitians who immigrate to the Colombisn half of the islands as laborers.

    Colombia has no interest in Guyana for the moment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  11. RandomWriterGuy Bernie Sanders Hindsight 2020

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    I had a thought: would the US and Brazil and La Plata ally with themselves in order to counter the Mexico-Colombia alliance and co. in Latin America? I can imagine a possible war across the region over that.
     
  12. Red_Galiray En un pueblito al sur de Estados Unidos.

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    La Plata and Brazil are likely. The US and those two, not really. Mostly because Brazil and La Plata know that they don't have much to win from opposing Colombia and Mexico. The main thing pulling Colombia and the Mexican Empire together is hate against the US and ambition over the Caribbean: nothing to do with the South Cone. Getting involved would simply not gain them anything as long as Colombia stops meddling there and provoking there. In any case, neither country really trusts the US. They don't trust Colombia either, that's for sure, but they haven't forgotten the Monroe Doctrine. It seemed like a silly declaration, but the Mexican-American War shows that they mean it. For the moment, both countries simply want to be left alone and develop their economies and industry without wars or complicated international alliances.
     
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  13. RandomWriterGuy Bernie Sanders Hindsight 2020

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    You did mention earlier how La Plata and Brazil aren’t on good terms with Colombia though. And considering that Colombia has many allies in South America and that Brazil and La Plata have territorial ambitions, I wonder if it’s possible for any conflict in South America involving these disputes.
     
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  14. Red_Galiray En un pueblito al sur de Estados Unidos.

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    It certainly is possible, just not a conflict that focuses on the Caribbean. The main areas of conflict would be, of course, Rio Grande and the Patagonia.
     
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  15. RandomWriterGuy Bernie Sanders Hindsight 2020

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    And how likely would non-South American nations would be involved in it?
     
  16. Red_Galiray En un pueblito al sur de Estados Unidos.

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    So, I am actually not planning on having an international war take place in Latin America. The TL has the objective of creating a more prosperous and united Latin America, and a war like that would obviously be counterproductive to that. In any case, I don't think one could realistically take place ITTL. There's a lot of mistrust, but no outright hate, and every party realizes that a war would be disastrous and gain them nothing. Those points of tensions will probably be resolved with diplomacy and treaties, not with riffles and ironclads. But just for the sake of speculation... Terrain precludes any land battles between Colombia and the South Cone, so the war would be naval. Britain may be willing to help Colombia then, but France still has some interests on the South Cone, and they are competing with Britain, so they may help the Platineans. The US would probably jump in just to get some benefit out of the whole mess.
     
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  17. Red_Galiray En un pueblito al sur de Estados Unidos.

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    Sorry, I missed your comment! Well, after researching for my other TL, I learned that some Northern radicals did support Northern secession. But I'm leaning towards the idea of a true Civil War. As in, one section gains power, the other executes or tries a coup, the country descends into civil war as different states declare for a different government. Yet Northern secession is very possible ITTL too, because the Slavocrats have a far stronger grip upon the Federal Government. As a result, American Liberal ideology is tamed and more aristocratic when compared with OTL, because they needed extensive Southern support to win, and the Democratic Party never became a populist and, well, democratic coalition. Slavery is associated with not only barbarism and bondage, but lack of reform, lack of economic dynamism, lack of change. And also, they caused a costly and bloody war just to have more territory for slavery. Northerners are simply tired of this, but they may try to first reform through democratic institutions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
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  18. RandomWriterGuy Bernie Sanders Hindsight 2020

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    Understandable. But then again in OTL it didn’t stop mishaps from Brazil’s expansion to having much of Paraguay’s males wiped out.
     
  19. generalurist Map Staring Expert

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    Oh cool, that sounds very interesing and unique!
     
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  20. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    In general i can see La plata and brasil ramming head for what would be urugay and part of paraguay but seems Bolivar did in paraguay keep both out so far.

    Other will be tension with brazil, remember colombia and venezuela did have more territory in amazonas(ditto Charkas/bolivia with OTL Acre) here all they will defend that and get into sable rattling with Brazil
     
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