'Minus World: New Game Plus' — A Successful Philips SNES-CD Timeline

[RandomDSdevel]

Looks like I have a fair bit to catch up on. Glad to see some interest here even if nothing's really too formal/formalized yet. Let me address each point I want to reply to in turn.

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First off, the name could use a bit of work. I'd personally call it "System Reboot", because it's a reboot of the P2S timeline, and because it involves video game systems.

Agreed, hence the current title only being a tentative placeholder to begin with. I'll add your suggestion to the list of title ideas. Now, though, I'm kind of being niggled by wanting something, maybe a variant of what you put forward, that more explicitly connotes restarting after a crash, referring to Philips's and the CD-i's failure in our timeline.

Second, here are my answers for your open questions. …

• What makes Nintendo interested in using CD-ROMs for games in this timeline?

If it's before 1988, perhaps some boys at Rare tell them about how powerful the ZX Spectrum is across the pond, which gets them interested in disc-based games sooner.

Right, I see that the ZX Spectrum, specifically its last '+3' revision, had a floppy disk drive, though not a CD drive. It also had similar CPU specs, at least when it came to clock speed, as compared to the SNES despite being an 8-bit architecture instead of a 16-bit one. The SNES definitely wins in the graphics and audio departments, though, regardless of timeline.

• What makes Nintendo include this timeline's improved Philips in initial negotiations?)

Assuming nothing about the creation of the CD or CD-i has changed from OTL, I'd say Phillips told Nintendo about the improved music quality of a CD, providing the main themes to SMB and Zelda 1 as pertinent examples of great gaming music from them, and then continued with the improved graphics potential.

Yeah, that could work. Does the CD-i still have to be a thing in this timeline, though? The stock (audio) CD and CD-ROM formats would be, of course, but there are more than a few different variants of 'extended-capability' CD. Actually, come to think of it, the 'Super Disc' was more drawn up by Sony in our timeline, and probably also in Player Two Start's, so would Philips use that or would they have their own, different format that isn't the CD-i and is instead comparable to the Super Disc? I'd have to see/find a comparison between our timeline's CD-i and hypothetical Super Disc to determine if that's actually something that'd have to be considered, though.

However, I do have another idea for early on: Launch the SNES-CD add-on in 1990 as well, and make a bundle package at launch for both of them. That way, we don't get peeved parents who are forced to buy two separate things so close to each other. We just get a couple of peeved children who are mad they didn't get the bundle for Christmas. Either way, it's a sale on Nintendo's end.

That'd be nice, but I was assuming that development for Philips's SNES CD add-on would take about as long as Sony's 'Nintendo PlayStation' one did in our timeline. Therefore, it wouldn't even get announced until mid-1991. If you can think of any development that could accelerate that timeline, please do share it. There should naturally still be an SNES/SNES-CD bundle after the accessory's launch, though.

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• What makes Nintendo interested in using CD-ROMs for games in this timeline?

The same as OTL,the information and later success of PC Engine CD in Japan, OTL PC Engine was very successful in Japan so they decided to make sure SNES have everything to counter it.

OK, I can work with that.

• What makes Nintendo include this timeline's improved Philips in initial negotiations?

I think Yamauchi getting the gut much like Gameboy development that giving Sony the sound chip and CD ROM drive is giving too much leverage to a single supplier (something Yamauchi hated OTL) and asking Sony more about CD ROM and Phillips is mentioned so snowball from there)

Also sounds good.

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Will Sony still enter the console market solo like OTL or would they team up with another company?

You know what?

Between Philips/Nintendo, Microsoft, Google and Apple, I'd prefer Sony and Sega get together.

Or Microsoft and Sega and Sony goes solo...

How about this:

1990: Nintendo/Phillips
1994: Sony (Solo venture, except for Columbia's involvement for IP production.)
2001: Microsoft/Sega (Sega might even be bought by Microsoft.)
2003: Microsoft buys Valve and makes it their PC gaming division. Nothing about Valve's production would change.
2013: Sony leaves the console market after the PS3, leaving for a Google/Apple console in its wake.
2014: Sony starts making consoles for the Google/Apple console.
2017: Microsoft starts their buying spree of OTL, if not sooner. Why it took this long after Valve was to prevent any anti-trust issues.

I'm punting on Google and Apple.

• Google's Stadia from our timeline doesn't really count as a notable gaming platform; it was a mess I barely paid any attention to except to shake my head at the poor sales. An alternate timeline of course gives Google an opportunity to get into gaming there, but I have no idea what it'd look like or what prospects it'd have.
• I have…opinions about Apple outside of gaming, but I'll save those for later. Back to gaming, the earliest I could see Apple devoting any resources to dedicated gaming hardware would be if the Apple/Bandai Pippin sold appreciably more units. Maybe some early butterflies before that could bolster the Mac game development industry? Later, they could also do more with the Apple TV.
  
  (Aside: Wikipedia's article on Mac gaming notes the following as being a Mac title:
  

  Pathways into Darkness, which spawned the Halo franchise

  It'd be funny if the Halo games or their counterpart saw release on Apple hardware in this timeline as at least a timed exclusive if not a permanent one, but I don't know if that's a variable I could handle adding.)

Regarding Sony, I'll refer back to some content from my OP:

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Existing discussion from the parent thread:

I wonder if Sony will still get into the console business or not.

Well, they'd still be irked that Nintendo didn't choose to partner with them in this timeline, so I'd assume so.

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I meant this thinking Sony would be on its own in this timeline.

As for Sega:

• Quoting from back before this got its own thread:
  
  

  Sega OTL exit comes from OTL post-Genesis failure but at the end of the day, the final burst of the Japanese bubble, Japan's new millennium recession hitting hard the amusement industry and that being one of OTL sega lifeline, OTL SEGA mismanagement and rivalries...Isao Okawa's death was the final trigger, as he singles handily keep SEGA alive since 1998 with debt forgiving measures and personal grants to the company, once he died, his heirs and CSK lost any interest in SEGA and that left the gradual exit of videogame consoles and to be sold off CSK Holdings. A little more healthy SEGA and some extra life of years of Okawa would have changed a lot of things

  
  I'd definitely be open to doing something to avert this.
• I also found independent speculation on what'd need to have happened for Sega to have survived in, off all things, a Quora Q&A thread. The most relevant content from there is:
  • Some analysis in its first answer:
    
    

    People less acquainted with the history of video games may not understand why the Dreamcast was Sega’s last console. They blame it on Sega not giving it DVD compatibility, or the sudden emergence of XBox. These may have been factors, but it’s not quite that simple. The latter was actually a symptom of their downfall rather than a cause, but we’ll get to that later. The Dreamcast was a great console, but it was not enough to overcome the consequences of years and years of bad decision-making on Sega’s part, or factors that were beyond their control. For Sega to have realistically never stopped making consoles, we need to go back about ten years before they did, and take a look at the events that contributed to the Dreamcast’s demise. They’ll need to play out a bit differently if Sega’s gonna keep making the Dreamcast, let alone keep making consoles for another three generations.
    
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    Funnily enough, the scenario that answer post goes on to propose parallels Player Two Start; I commented as much. In this thread's timeline, though, I was, as has been mentioned before, going with Sony still getting into the console market, so that doesn't give Sega the later breathing room that Quora post speculates about leaving it. I won't quote that here, though; it'd bring the rest of my source here in.
  • One more thing I will quote from there, though, is this other comment on it by another user — 'sic' —, also relevant:
    
    

    I would to point out that Microsoft didn't knock Sega off. Sega did that wholly on its own. Microsoft stepped in because they had helped co developed the dreamcast. that weird oversized first controller, the Duke, is a direct dependent of the Dreamcast controller with and niceties of the Playstation controller added to keep it grounded. the dream cast ran on Microsoft CE. So Microsoft was just sitting on a next generation console OS they just assumed they would sell to Sega but Sega threw in the towel and Microsoft thought they could be number 2 just like that…

So, if Sega can't survive on its own even with fewer internal and market issues, then I'd be in favor of partnering them with Microsoft.

TL;DR: So, we have:

• Nintendo/Philips
• Sony
• Sega, maybe with Microsoft later on.

If Microsoft didn't join in on that last grouping, I don't know if they'd join the market later on, though?

Let me guess the hd-dvd Blu-ray wars ended up with Sony losing as hd-dvd got the support of both MSega and Nintendo -phillips leaving Sony alone with an unpopular format?

Actually, I thought that Sony would be at a disadvantage by not partnering with someone else, but that's pretty cool, too.

Even though I'm a Blu-ray fan for life, but that's a different story.

I expected Sony to stick with Blu-rays and for HD-DVD to lose even more badly. Sony being the vendor whose console uses HD-DVDs is an interesting thought, however. Whether Sega, along with Microsoft if it's partnered up with them, uses HD-DVDs or also uses Blu-rays in their console that generation is something I'll leave open for now.

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Eh, I still feel like it would just be inundated with FMV garbage like the Sega CD was. Nintendo would probably make a couple games for it but overall I imagine they'd look at it like the Zapper or the Power Glove-another peripheral to the main console (they might port some of the regular SNES games to the CD player, but-again-see how that worked out for Sega). Although the experience of working on the CD stuff earlier could have effects when it starts to catch on, meaning they might not be smashed into paste by the PS1 this time around, but that's probably getting a little too far ahead.

Nintendo at the time still have the treehouse that double as a internal Western testers keep the seal of quality standards, so they would expunged a lot of 'barely games' FMV stuff, so i don't think they will have a problem.

Exactly; Nintendo has more than a little history in holding high standards for games that come to its platforms.

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Now on to things that aren't replies but which I'm including in this multi-post anyway.

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This timeline may well want to find some way to avert at least some of Genyo Takeda's penchant for overly cutting down on hardware costs.

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The following are things that should or could change in the N64 when we get to that point:

• Rambus and RDRAM. Proper SDRAM will be used instead, removing technical difficulties and limitations, having knock-on effects with the rest of the N64's architecture. (How SGI fares in this timeline is another thing I'm leaving open for now.)
• Either the N64:
  • Has 4 MB of RAM as stock and has another, empty RAM expansion slot available for another stick of 4 MB of SDRAM.
  • Comes stock with 8 MB of RAM instead of our timeline's 4 MB.
• Regardless of whether it still also has a cartridge slot or not, the optical disc drive on this timeline's N64 should be built in after the success of Philips's SNES-CD.
• The DVD standard was finalized in 1996 in our timeline. I doubt this wouldn't stay the same in this thread's timeline, so the N64's disc drive could take DVDs, too, instead of just CDs if the console's release schedule stayed roughly the same as in our timeline.

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I'll edit this thread's OP to include what's been agreed on so far since then later.

 

[Nivek]

I expected Sony to stick with Blu-rays and for HD-DVD to lose even more badly. Sony being the vendor whose console uses HD-DVDs is an interesting thought, however. Whether Sega, along with Microsoft if it's partnered up with them, uses HD-DVDs or also uses Blu-rays in their console that generation is something I'll leave open for now.

OTL HD-DVD still got hyped but being a weird add-on for X360 and Sony Pushing the blu-ray hard in PS3 was why the Blu-ray was able to win, Sony risked billions so not lose their optical media empire, if other consoles use HD-DVD since day one(Especially Nintendo would want a format not in propriety a rival unless Phillips get into blu-ray day one, OTL they waited till PS3 was released to commit Blu-ray only and whatever SEGA, MS or someone else will be using) but that depends on the butterflies.

This timeline may well want to find some way to avert at least some of Genya Takeda's penchant for overly cutting down on hardware costs.

Very Easy, don't fuck up the N64, people forget how that console backstage problems changed how Nintendo make their consoles(the GameCube was done TO fix all OTL N64 PROBLEMs, better ram, a CPU they could control the fabrication order, a GPU made by a start-up created by a friend of them, a sound processor unit optimized with Factor 5 audio codecs), it was Gamecube failure which causes them to upend the table. Things obviously butterflied away


Another Thing would be keeping Takeda busy in the software side, he was a full fledge videogame developer alongside his hardware work but he being called to salvage the N64 make him a full fledge Hardware developer and his software team got dismantled, if he keep making videogames would do other things

 

[CrashBandicam]

It would be interesting for the console wars ITTL or in a ATL to be a 4-way race between Nintendo, Sega, Sony and Microsoft.

 

[Nivek]

Comes stock with 8 MB of RAM instead of our timeline's 4 MB.

The DVD standard was finalized in 1996 in our timeline. I doubt this wouldn't stay the same in this thread's timeline, so the N64's disc drive could take DVDs, too, instead of just CDs if the console's release schedule stayed roughly the same as in our timeline.

If we want a CD/DVD, 8MB could be Vital, or 6MB and letting it open for an expansion pak later on, when Ram prices become cheaper and feasible.

 

[CourtlyHades296]

Secret of Mana is likely to remain an SNES-CD game in this timeline even with the SNES-CD launching in 1993.

 

[CrashBandicam]

If we want a CD/DVD, 8MB could be Vital, or 6MB and letting it open for an expansion pak later on, when Ram prices become cheaper and feasible.

Would a 1996 launch be plausible for a DVD-based N64? Or should we avoid something like the PlayStation 3 fiasco from happening earlier and have it launch later in 1997 or 1998?

 

[CourtlyHades296]

It would be better to have the GameCube or its equivalent to be DVD-based, while having the N64 run on CDs.

 

[Nivek]

It would be better to have the GameCube or its equivalent to be DVD-based, while having the N64 run on CDs.

Yeah as there wasn't a rush to get DVD out to the market. If anything is what the author wants

 

[RandomDSdevel]

I'll edit this thread's OP to include what's been agreed on so far since then later.

This is now done. The result could use some polishing up, though. Any thoughts on that are welcome, naturally.

 

[Nivek]

This is now done. The result could use some polishing up, though. Any thoughts on that are welcome, naturally.

Well that's a good start, going from competitors efforts and keeping up the Joneses, plus taking account Yamauchi personality,having all 4 different supplier of SNES components avoid give too much power a single One. Plus keeping up the rest of questions.

With now Nintendo going with their CD drive,maybe SEGA would bother to support SEGA CD or at least realize CD are the future and tell the giga drive/away team(that would evolved in different unreleased consoles concepts,) to focus on CD for the mega drive successor. That Sega doesn't fumble giga drive/Saturn as OTL that's SEGA own business.

About Sony, already having the SNES audio experience alongside msx they would saw they money on the table and want their own share. Would they going alone as OTL? Looks for a partner? SNK? Tailto? Someone else?

 

[RandomDSdevel]

In my OP, I note/state the following:

Point of Divergence:
Philips has the same amount of technical expertise and extant research and development as Sony by the time Nintendo starts looking to make the SNES's disc system add-on.

This kind of isn't our PoD, really, though, since other things would have to change before then to put Philips in this position. Does anybody have any ideas as to what the differences here could be?

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I wonder if there's anything that could get Ken Kutaragi to defect from Sony at some point and either:

• Start or become part of a spin-off company or
• Go to work for Nintendo.

A similarly skilled colleague should probably stay behind at Sony, though.

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What do we want this timeline's SNES-CD's specs to be? Should they be better than the PC Engine CD-ROM²'s and Sega CD's or just roughly comparable to them?

(I have a few more ideas for what this timeline's N64 counterpart's hardware should look like than I do for the SNES-CD, but I should probably put those aside to save them for later for now.)

 

[Nivek]

What do we want this timeline's SNES-CD's specs to be? Should they be better than the PC Engine CD-ROM²'s and Sega CD's or just roughly comparable to them?

Of Course would be far better than the PC Engine CD, as made later and Nintendo already have the basis of the Super FX chip, so they could use a RISC CPU on the SNES-CD for basic but at the time still unique 3D games for the console(Star Fox 1 and 2, maybe a primitive 3d fighter, a 3D racer as good as Virtua Racing) that would give the system good life alongside Nintendo 2D games(Platformers, actions adventure, etc), Konami and Capcom Action games. Enix, Square, et al RPG and Capcom 2D fighters.

I wonder if there's anything that could get Ken Kutaragi to defect from Sony at some point and either:

Maybe Sony have no hurry to release a console when Ken believes they could have one ready to compete against Nintendo by 1991/1992. (Japan and US respectively)(It wouldn't be the same as OTL one but still would look like a cheaper and better-done 3DO with comparable 3D) make Ken fight and when ignored he just walks away... SNK, Capcom and others would love his Audio and 3D expertise. Especially SNK as they did release a CD-based Console(Neo Geo CD that because production mistake, was very overpriced at the launch door and lacked 3D processors )

 

[RandomDSdevel]

Would a 1996 launch be plausible for a DVD-based N64? Or should we avoid something like the PlayStation 3 fiasco from happening earlier and have it launch later in 1997 or 1998?

It would be better to have the GameCube or its equivalent to be DVD-based, while having the N64 run on CDs.

Yeah as there wasn't a rush to get DVD out to the market. If anything is what the author wants

I just thought having this timeline's N64 counterpart use DVDs could be an interesting butterfly. The timing of the DVD standard's finalization and when DVD players first start appearing on the market also still makes this possible even outside of an idea I had outside of this thread (in the third part of this post) for another, accelerated video game history timeline. I might just have to save the idea for that, though; whether the N64 using DVDs would be plausible is another question.

(Also, our timeline's N64DD's proprietary, Zip disk–like double-thickness 3.5" floppy disks gave it read/write capabilities. To enable the same in this timeline, an N64 counterpart with a DVD drive built in would have to have that disc drive either:

• Be a (multi-session) DVD burner of some variety, though this'd increase the system's price, or
• Only offer read functionality and store read/write data in:
  • A memory card,
  • A cartridge — I think this timeline's N64 may still have a cartridge slot, though it'd also be and get used more as an expansion slot —, or
  • On-device storage, though that'd also affect the system's price.)

Any change in release date for this timeline's N64 counterpart would depend on component supply for the DVD drive if that was what it ended up using. A later release might also let Nintendo bump its specs a bit given the additional development time. IIRC, the N64 was already the most powerful console that generation in our timeline; this'd just give its counterpart here even more of an edge — not that it needs it. If this timeline's N64 counterpart used DVDs, then it'd also put pressure on the market to adopt the format faster. I agree that an N64 counterpart that used CDs would likely still remain competitive enough, however.

In any case, this is still up in the air for reconsideration later when this timeline gets to the fifth generation of consoles. I should return to focusing on the SNES-CD for now.

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@Nivek: Can we get RySenkari in here if they might be interested?

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Having NEC not mishandle the PC Engine's international release as the TurboGrafx-16, and the same with the PC Engine CD-ROM²/TurboGrafx-CD, could prove interesting, but I don't know if that'd fit in here.

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This timeline may well want to find some way to avert at least some of Genyo Takeda's penchant for overly cutting down on hardware costs.

Very Easy, don't fuck up the N64, people forget how that console backstage problems changed how Nintendo make their consoles(the GameCube was done TO fix all OTL N64 PROBLEMs, better ram, a CPU they could control the fabrication order, a GPU made by a start-up created by a friend of them, a sound processor unit optimized with Factor 5 audio codecs), it was Gamecube failure which causes them to upend the table. Things obviously butterflied away

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Well, you know that's something I'm aiming at already.

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Another Thing would be keeping Takeda busy in the software side, he was a full fledge videogame developer alongside his hardware work but he being called to salvage the N64 make him a full fledge Hardware developer and his software team got dismantled, if he keep making videogames would do other things

👍 What do we have him work on? A new StarTropics game for this timeline's N64 counterpart, maybe? We'll still want him to contribute the N64 controller's analog stick, though, of course.

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I wonder if there's anything that could get Ken Kutaragi to defect from Sony at some point and either:

Maybe Sony have no hurry to release a console when Ken believes they could have one ready to compete against Nintendo by 1991/1992. (Japan and US respectively)(It wouldn't be the same as OTL one but still would look like a cheaper and better-done 3DO with comparable 3D) make Ken fight and when ignored he just walks away... …

(Nods.) Sony's first PlayStation didn't come out until 1994 in our timeline either, anyway.

…SNK, Capcom and others would love his Audio and 3D expertise. Especially SNK as they did release a CD-based Console(Neo Geo CD that because production mistake, was very overpriced at the launch door and lacked 3D processors )

I guess that puts a vote in for him to be in his own company, then? He could do contract work for both Nintendo and others that way.

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I've now added some tentative guidelines to the OP.

 

[Nivek]

guess that puts a vote in for him to be in his own company, then? He could do contract work for both Nintendo and others that way.

I was throwing ideas to the table but he could work as an example of start up post company,like DR Wei yen with artx

(Nods.) Sony's first PlayStation didn't come out until 1994 in our timeline either, anyway.

https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/sony-system-g-1860155/ plus system g wasn't ready enough

 

[CourtlyHades296]

In this timeline, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis gets an SNES-CD port in 1993. It has all of the voice acting of the PC version, and doesn't require a high-end device to run.

 

[Nivek]

In this timeline, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis gets an SNES-CD port in 1993. It has all of the voice acting of the PC version, and doesn't require a high-end device to run.

Now we're talking the most important thing..the games themselves. And I would say Yes,the SNES -CD would run those adventure games of LucasArts very easily, Sam and max and day of tentacle could get a second window to success.

What do we have him work on? A new StarTropics game for this timeline's N64 counterpart, maybe? We'll still want him to contribute the N64 controller's analog stick, though, of course

StarTropics was the closest he has to an IP,that could work if they move the sequel to SNES CD( the device needs games of course) and later on moved to 3D games with the upcoming N64, that can lead to the analog stick as Miyamoto would want something to control 3D games easily and they could demoed alongside 3D games prototypes too.

Having NEC not mishandle the PC Engine's international release as the TurboGrafx-16, and the same with the PC Engine CD-ROM²/TurboGrafx-CD, could prove interesting, but I don't know if that'd fit in here.

This could be another good timeline with itself and the butterfly why others take the CD more seriously during the fourth generation.

 

[CourtlyHades296]

Also, the SNES-CD gets Star Wars: X-Wing in 1994. The cartridge SNES still gets the Super Star Wars trilogy and Indiana Jones's Greatest Adventures.

 

[CrashBandicam]

How powerful is the SNES-CD ITTL? Is it comparable to or better than the PC Engine CD-ROM²/TurboGrafx-CD and the Sega Mega-CD in terms of power or is it a Jaguar/3DO-like beast?

 

[CourtlyHades296]

TTL's SNES-CD has a processor running at 14 MHZ (stronger than the Sega CD but weaker than the Neo Geo's 20 MHZ or Player Two Start SNES-CD's 22 MHZ). It had a North American launch in the summer of 1993, being released in Japan in Spring that year.

 

[Nivek]

Also, the SNES-CD gets Star Wars: X-Wing in 1994. The cartridge SNES still gets the Super Star Wars trilogy and Indiana Jones's Greatest Adventures.

I would say SSWT would be a dual release( with CD having the movie cinematics) IJGA would be so vanilla SNES players doesn't feel let behind.

TTL's SNES-CD has a processor running at 14 MHZ (stronger than the Sega CD but weaker than the Neo Geo's 20 MHZ or Player Two Start SNES-CD's 22 MHZ). It had a North American launch in the summer of 1993, being released in Japan in Spring that year.

We dunno yet when the addon will be release or their specs but a 32Bit RISC is far stronger and more modern a 68K even if the 68K was a little beast