Minor Jutland Change

By this I mean that if you are carrying extra rounds in the gun turrets and you have extra range compared to the Germans why not open fire first. Historically the Germans opened fire first. I've never seen a solid explanation of why.

A while back I finished off Andrew Gordon's The Rules of the Game, which is digressive but fascinating, and from what I remember during the early stages of the battle the Germans had better visibility, and in general their gunnery was very good. I need to dig that book out again. I don't recall any mention of German reaction to the destruction of the battlecruisers, if anything I remember reading that they didn't realise they were gone.

Without the sudden loss of two capital ships and over two thousand personnel the aftermath however would have been far more favourable for the Royal Navy. Instead of a major controversy, with the Germans arguing that they had won, Jutland would probably be remembered as an inconclusive large-scale "might have been".

Ah, I've dug out The Rules of the Game. It seems that the battle began just as the Royal Navy was preparing to have tea, and the captain of Warspite was upset when the executive officer sounded action stations instead of a more general alert, because the captain wanted to get tea out of the way first. The captain of New Zealand went into battle wearing a Maori pendant that had been presented to the ship by a Maori chieftain; he was unable to put on a Maori skirt because he was too large, but "he kept it close at hand, 'ready to put on should things become too hot'".

Of the gunnery Gordon says that "Hipper's pale-grey ships blended well against the lowering overcast to the east, and the British, overestimating the range, waiting too long before opening fire. It was the Germans who broke the tension, at 3.45 GMT, at about 18,500 yards and closing fast". Furthermore the wind was blowing west-to-east, which meant that German gunsmoke immediately passed over their ships and away, whereas British gunsmoke obscured the German ships from the British gunners - but the converse was not true, because the Germans had better optics and could range on the tips of the British warships' masts.

The Germans got off to a terrific start and I wonder how things might have gone if their guns were a couple of inches bigger, even if the British followed regulations to a T. Re-reading that part of the book it strikes me that for all the opprobrium directed at Beatty, in the space of less than an hour his ship sustained a near-catastrophic hit and two of his other ships blew up with the loss of over a thousand sailors each, but he didn't panic and carried on directing his part of the battle and eventually brought his ship home. Iron men indeed.
 
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Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
From what I remember, a few years ago (For the 100th anniversary) HMS Echo (Don't quote me) undertook a multi-beam sonar exploration of the battle site and located ALL of the capital ships lost at Jutland (And most of the cruisers).

They also found detonations of shells on the seabed, which allowed them to 'track' the battle. Quite interesting documentary in fact and I strongly recommend watching it, but (and PLEASE do not quote me here) if I am remembering correctly initially they found only part of HMS Indefatigable. Further investigation ensued, and they finally found the rest of her about 1.6km away. What they believe happened is:
Hit to the stern blew off the stern and killed or incapacitated all on board (Due to over-pressurization).
Ship coasted with the squadron as bulkheads fail and stern settles.
Hit on the bow magazine, bow blows up and ship sinks.

They reckon that as she was 'Tail end Charlie' the rest of the fleet would not have realized that she was coasting as they could not see the detached stern. They would also not realise that her crew was all dead already for the same reason.

Really niffed I can't find that sonar image of her whole wreck site.

It was repeated yesterday and your summarisation above is spot on. Also explains that very strange shape purported to be Indefatigable's last moments - the front part of the ship heeling over to port. I've always had a soft spot for the old Indefatigable.

Lion survived a hit Q turrent due to the nature of the hit. The hit blew the roof off Q turret buying a Royal Marine enough time the flood Q turrent's magazine in an act of suicidal bravery.
That prevented Admiral Beaty from having to personally experience the consequences of his disregard of ammunition handling regulations.
The Invincible was in serious trouble and probably sinking before her magazines were penetrated.
The Queen Mary was said to have the best gunnery of all the British battlecruisers. Her survival would mean more hits on German vessels. The German battlecruisers were all seriously shot up when they returned home after the battle, with one extra British battle-cruiser several wouldn't have survived.

I think you mean Indefatigable as she certainly seemed to stagger out of line to starboard before the final explosions. Invincible was shooting very well (as Dannreuther reports Hood's last known words) and there was no evidence she was in trouble before the hit amidships that blew her in two. By the way I hear stories that the famous picture of the explosion purporting to show the shockwave was a retouched fraud - true?
 
It was repeated yesterday and your summarisation above is spot on. Also explains that very strange shape purported to be Indefatigable's last moments - the front part of the ship heeling over to port. I've always had a soft spot for the old Indefatigable.

What was the name of the documentary and do you know who produced it?
Thanks.
 

elkarlo

Banned
From what I remember, a few years ago (For the 100th anniversary) HMS Echo (Don't quote me) undertook a multi-beam sonar exploration of the battle site and located ALL of the capital ships lost at Jutland (And most of the cruisers).

They also found detonations of shells on the seabed, which allowed them to 'track' the battle. Quite interesting documentary in fact and I strongly recommend watching it, but (and PLEASE do not quote me here) if I am remembering correctly initially they found only part of HMS Indefatigable. Further investigation ensued, and they finally found the rest of her about 1.6km away. What they believe happened is:
Hit to the stern blew off the stern and killed or incapacitated all on board (Due to over-pressurization).
Ship coasted with the squadron as bulkheads fail and stern settles.
Hit on the bow magazine, bow blows up and ship sinks.

They reckon that as she was 'Tail end Charlie' the rest of the fleet would not have realized that she was coasting as they could not see the detached stern. They would also not realise that her crew was all dead already for the same reason.

Really niffed I can't find that sonar image of her whole wreck site.
Wow would like to know more. Wonder if they were all dead before it sank. As why wouldn't they communicate that they were basically dead in the water? Very strange
 
The only way the whole crew could have been killed by the stern magazine going up is if all the internal bulkheads in the rest of the ship had collapsed. In which case the bow would also have sunk immediately. So some crew must have survived the initial explosion, but they were presumably too busy/stunned to communicate.

If the bow is a mile away, then that's, what three minutes at 20 knots. Call it five minutes' coasting for the bow? The water is shallow so no funny glide paths during sinking.
 
Good discussion. I concur that the two ''I class" ships would probably have been sunk anyway. Either through direct hits on magazines or cumulative damage. With the caveat that had the battle developed a bit differently HMS Invincible might not have got into quite the same position close to the German battle cruisers as it did OTL.

HMS Queen Mary's fate is more uncertain. A BBC documentary suggested that it could take similar damage to Seydlitz or Derfflinger without sinking. Altjough it would have been very low in the water and might not have survived the journey back to Scapa Flow. It would have inflicted more damage on the German battle cruisers so maybe one or more is sunk during their Death Ride or later.

So final score 2-2, ,2-3 or 3-3, British ships lost second? Tactical draw rather than German victory but strategic win for the RN.

Anyone know a good wargame to test it out?

Yes how about seekrieg http://www.seekrieg.com/
 
The only way the whole crew could have been killed by the stern magazine going up is if all the internal bulkheads in the rest of the ship had collapsed. In which case the bow would also have sunk immediately. So some crew must have survived the initial explosion, but they were presumably too busy/stunned to communicate.

If the bow is a mile away, then that's, what three minutes at 20 knots. Call it five minutes' coasting for the bow? The water is shallow so no funny glide paths during sinking.
I doubt very much all the crew were killed or even completely incapacitated by the initial explosion of the after magazine, it always struck me as a bit false when I saw that program. The evidence of the survivors of the Queen Mary was that the gun crews in Q and X turrets felt the "big shock", were thrown around, then picked themselves up and basically asked WTF happened? And the explosion of Queen Mary's forward magazines would have been twice as powerful as the explosion of Indefatigable's X magazine.
Also the sinking of Indefatigable is a little different from the sinkings of Invincible, Queen Mary or Hood in that it was not immediately obvious to outside observers that the ship was doomed.
X magazine blew up for whatever reason, the rear quarter or so of the ship being destroyed but the rest kept going due to inertia for a mile or so unlike the other three sinkings mentioned, why?
Well obviously the bow was intact, a smooth shape cutting through the water, but the rest of the ship wasn't flooding as fast as one would expect. Looking at photographs of Indefatigable there might be an explanation, when X magazine exploded it would destroy all around it, the blast would propagate outwards, the path of least resistance is through the ship or the atmosphere, not the sea which would act as a barrier.
As the blast moves forward it comes to the aftmost boiler rooms that exhaust through the aft funnel, one big pathway of least resistance. I surmise that a lot of the force went up and out through this route, yes a lot forward is wrecked, the ship is doomed and flooding but not as quickly as might be.
Another point is that Vonn der Tann kept shooting, they still had a target that they thought that they should be shooting at, yes they saw a big cloud of smoke but they could still see a target and kept shooting until the final explosion.
 
Wow would like to know more. Wonder if they were all dead before it sank. As why wouldn't they communicate that they were basically dead in the water? Very strange
I presume the above-deck crew were out of it. Those in the forward hull could be alive and trying to escape, but communication would not be their field and they would have had more important priorities.

Also if the explosion vented up, bye bye aft mast and all wires between. The fwd mast may still be up but no guarantee the wires etc. are around, and power would defiantly be out so no radio or signal lights and whatnot. It is very possible that people did try to communicate that they were uncontrolled, but with no power then you rely on flags, and if the flag ropes are down then no flags. Also is 3 minutes enough time to select the flags and run them up? If so, did they manage to do that but smoke was obscuring them to onlookers?
 

elkarlo

Banned
I presume the above-deck crew were out of it. Those in the forward hull could be alive and trying to escape, but communication would not be their field and they would have had more important priorities.

Also if the explosion vented up, bye bye aft mast and all wires between. The fwd mast may still be up but no guarantee the wires etc. are around, and power would defiantly be out so no radio or signal lights and whatnot. It is very possible that people did try to communicate that they were uncontrolled, but with no power then you rely on flags, and if the flag ropes are down then no flags. Also is 3 minutes enough time to select the flags and run them up? If so, did they manage to do that but smoke was obscuring them to onlookers?
Of couse the radio would be out. No doubt. Flags or flashing Morse code coukd have been used. And having read steel battleships, given the British and their stoic humor, if they could have gotten a message out, it would've been "slowing down, don't wait up for us".

Wonder how much the initial damage could have injured the crew ? Massive blasts can injure or incapacitate men while leaving the ship mostly intact
 
Of couse the radio would be out. No doubt. Flags or flashing Morse code coukd have been used. And having read steel battleships, given the British and their stoic humor, if they could have gotten a message out, it would've been "slowing down, don't wait up for us".

Wonder how much the initial damage could have injured the crew ? Massive blasts can injure or incapacitate men while leaving the ship mostly intact
How would flashing morse code work without power to the lamps?

Were they on the same system (ie powered by the engines) or another system (powered by batteries for instance?) If on main ship power, then no engines = no power to the morse signal lamps.
 

elkarlo

Banned
How would flashing morse code work without power to the lamps?

Were they on the same system (ie powered by the engines) or another system (powered by batteries for instance?) If on main ship power, then no engines = no power to the morse signal lamps.
That's for distance ir at night. You can do Morse via semaphores iirc. Not sure if they would be motorosizdd or manual at that tune though . Of they are powered by the engines, then yes they're useless
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
I presume the above-deck crew were out of it. Those in the forward hull could be alive and trying to escape, but communication would not be their field and they would have had more important priorities.

Also if the explosion vented up, bye bye aft mast and all wires between. The fwd mast may still be up but no guarantee the wires etc. are around, and power would defiantly be out so no radio or signal lights and whatnot. It is very possible that people did try to communicate that they were uncontrolled, but with no power then you rely on flags, and if the flag ropes are down then no flags. Also is 3 minutes enough time to select the flags and run them up? If so, did they manage to do that but smoke was obscuring them to onlookers?

IIRC one of the two survivors was up a mast trying to fix something.
 
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