Ming Treasure Fleet was a success

Hi as you know the early Ming send out a Treasure Fleet to show the world the glory of China, what if it was succesful in our world it wasn't due to Red Tape.



What would Chinese North and South America in 1911 look like and Europe powers as well?.


Also the Mings are still in power,


LW
 
Define what you mean by success?I am asking because the treasure fleet did accomplish it's tasks.And no,it would not discover North America.
 
Well the thing is the treasure fleet was basically egregious dick waving more than anything useful. It did project Chinese power but it was so expensive.
 
Yeah, the whole treasure fleet project was a gimmick to project China's viewpoint as the center of the universe around a world of tributaries. On that count, the Ming were already successful. The only issue was simply that (1) it was extremely expensive to dispatch every time and (2) only Yongle was interested in the project at all, and his successors were pretty content with sticking to tributaries just off their borders instead of trying to extorting gifts from distant lands that's more expensive to reach than it's worth.
 
It was a success. It established Ming hegemony over the Indian, with the elimination of those who threatened Ming interests (that pirate in Palembang, Sikandar in Semudera, etc).
 
Just out of interest what other historical big ocean going fleets were put together pre 1600? I know Francis Drake had a 30 warship fleet in the Americas and the Spanish armada had 130 ship.

Are there any others and how much did they cost?
 
You'd be more likely to see Chinese conquest of West Africa than Chinese colonisation of the New World with that era, because at least they actually visited Africa with it.

Also, if Ming were regularly involved in these treasure fleets, they'd probably fall a lot sooner due to the huge expense to the state, although to some other Chinese dynasty and not the Manchu.
 
You'd be more likely to see Chinese conquest of West Africa than Chinese colonisation of the New World with that era, because at least they actually visited Africa with it.
Didn't treasure fleet go only as far as Mogadishu? West Africa was quite further away...
 
Mogadishu is in East Africa, on the western shore of the Indian Ocean. I think at that least part of a Treasure Fleet reached Sofala in present day Mozambique and certainly Malindi in Kenya.
 
Mogadishu would count as West Africa IMO. But I could've sworn it visited Zanzibar too which is what I had in mind.

Get your geography right, Somalia and Zanzibar is in the EAST. :D

The Ming Fleet only reached East Africa because they thought "OK, that's far enough, let's go home." If they had decided to round the Cape of Good Hope, why would they want to stop at just West Africa when they could have taken the winds and went all the way to Europe?
 
Get your geography right, Somalia and Zanzibar is in the EAST. :D

The Ming Fleet only reached East Africa because they thought "OK, that's far enough, let's go home." If they had decided to round the Cape of Good Hope, why would they want to stop at just West Africa when they could have taken the winds and went all the way to Europe?

Yes, sorry, I wasn't thinking straight when I wrote that. Point still stands.
 
Yes, sorry, I wasn't thinking straight when I wrote that. Point still stands.
Even though you mixed up east and west, it is still far more likelyfor the Chinese to colonise western Africa than to colonise the America's. At least they knew Africa existed. Also Western Africa would have been easier to reach than western America, at least you can easily follow the coastline of Africa and thus get supplies. That said, both are pretty unlikely.
 
Even though you mixed up east and west, it is still far more likelyfor the Chinese to colonise western Africa than to colonise the America's. At least they knew Africa existed. Also Western Africa would have been easier to reach than western America, at least you can easily follow the coastline of Africa and thus get supplies. That said, both are pretty unlikely.

Thinking of it that way, would Chinese Brazil somehow be more plausible than Chinese California? The way the currents go, it's pretty difficult not to eventually find Brazil if you're sailing in that region, so much it's almost surprising that Christopher Columbus found the New World in the manner he did instead of some European landing in Brazil.

Thing is,what could the Chinese gain by doing that?

Zanzibar was a pretty rich port for much of history, as with Mogadishu. I don't think it's really plausible the Chinese would try and take it, but they would have a reason to, unlike sending ships out into the unknown far past Japan. Maybe if China was in the business of directly ruling trade ports in Southeast Asia they'd expand to Africa at some point. The fact they weren't says a lot about Chinese mentality as well as the strength of some of those Southeast Asian kingdoms.
 
You'd be more likely to see Chinese conquest of West Africa than Chinese colonisation of the New World with that era, because at least they actually visited Africa with it.

Also, if Ming were regularly involved in these treasure fleets, they'd probably fall a lot sooner due to the huge expense to the state, although to some other Chinese dynasty and not the Manchu.

Also, it should be noted that right before the Ming China had been under Mongol rule for a long time, and Ming policy was, by necessity heavily focused on stopping that from happening again. Maintaining the fleet would have meant a LOT less money that can be spent on the army, especially if said fleet gets sent to conquer someplace far away.
 
I was under the impression that Zanzibar became particularly prominent (over Kilwa, Malindi, etc) only because of the Omani era.

Seems like it was always a port of some note, although you might be right about it not being above the other Swahili coast ports until then. Plenty of potential ports for a hypothetical implausibly expansionist China to grab at any rate.
 
Thinking of it that way, would Chinese Brazil somehow be more plausible than Chinese California? The way the currents go, it's pretty difficult not to eventually find Brazil if you're sailing in that region, so much it's almost surprising that Christopher Columbus found the New World in the manner he did instead of some European landing in Brazil.
Kind of sort of, but we are already in several layers of unlikelyness here. Colonisation/occupation of Eastern Africa by the Chinese is already unlikely. Why bother with eastern Africa, if Asia is so much closer. Western Africa is even more unlikely. Why bother with it when eastern Africa is so much closer. China colonising Brasil is another level of unlikely. Why go there when western Africa is closer and more useful. Also at this point the Europeans get involved.

So is China colonising Brasil more likely than China colonising western America? At this point both are so unlikely, it doesn't matter anymore. I think it is far more likely for China to focus on Asia and if they venture outside Asia, it will be eastern Africa (and maybe Oceania, I guess).
 
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