Ming Dynasty Space Program

Rewatching an old episode of Mythbusters got me to wondering. Let's suppose that someone high up in the Imperial bureaucracy of 15th Century China gets a bee in his bonnet about "touching the stars," or in modern terms, reaching space. Obviously this is impossible with black powder rockets and the materials technology of the time, but if this person has the power and influence to pursue the project to the limit, how well could the "launch vehicles" perform, and what might the spin-off effects be?
 

jahenders

Banned
Yes, definitely impossible with the technology available at the time.

However, a strong push in that direction could have led to focusing research in:
- Developing better/faster gunpowder or other propellents
- Light/strong vehicle materials
- Effects of altitude on people
- Other experiments in flight

These things couldn't have led to reaching space in less than centuries. But, might have led to:
- The creation of much better rockets, including the creation of rockets much better in warfare
- Development of artillery and artillery spotting/plotting
- Better materials for weapons and vehicles
- Earlier development of balloons


Rewatching an old episode of Mythbusters got me to wondering. Let's suppose that someone high up in the Imperial bureaucracy of 15th Century China gets a bee in his bonnet about "touching the stars," or in modern terms, reaching space. Obviously this is impossible with black powder rockets and the materials technology of the time, but if this person has the power and influence to pursue the project to the limit, how well could the "launch vehicles" perform, and what might the spin-off effects be?
 

RousseauX

Donor
They might have being able to launch a person up to the attitude that would be considered "flying" for a small period of time but I suspect that's it.
 
If something crazy happens they might get a flying machine that can glide and gain altitude with the help of rockets, although it may be a stretch, it would be a pretty big deal for future technology. Think Wright brothers flyer with rockets to replace propeller and engines. Dangerous, but effective for reconnaissance.
 
Other propellants makes me think- when, exactly, was nitroglycerine invented? I know the official patent date is 1864 or thereabouts, but other bits of chemistry lore floating around suggest it's not that hard to synthesize by accident; may have been discovered on numerous occasions before that, during the age of alchemical nonsense, with two major caveats.

It's a powerful, highly volatile explosive. Anyone who stumbled across it and had no idea what it was or how to treat it...there may be a good rational explanation for all those mediaeval alchemists who "stumbled across something man was not meant to know, and were torn apart by demons." Fluorine in the nineteenth century had a similar reputation; it was said that you could tell who had just managed to isolate elemental fluorine by reading the obituary columns.

So, in the field of developing other propellants then- if you can stop the alchemists blowing themselves up, yes, that will make the basis (with stabilisers, lots of stabilisers) of a successful solid propellant. It's roll of the dice time when it would be safely invented- arguably the official date is 1864 because laboratory procedure had developed to the point where it could at last be safely done. If it could be fluked earlier, well.
 
The most likely outcome is what happened to Wan Hu (or what was said to have happened; the story seems to have a complete invention of American authors in the early 20th century). Someone makes a more or less clever attempt at flying into the air and gets exploded or at best badly injured for their trouble.
 
If something crazy happens they might get a flying machine that can glide and gain altitude with the help of rockets, although it may be a stretch, it would be a pretty big deal for future technology. Think Wright brothers flyer with rockets to replace propeller and engines. Dangerous, but effective for reconnaissance.
Effective for reconnaissance? Really? How?
Using fireworks (basically) as JATO units would be incredibly inefficient, and, as you say, very dangerous. The thrust would not be even or reliable, probably, and enough rockets to get a decent glider up to speed would be pretty expensive, I'd think.

If you HAD such a glider, and I don't see where that's going to come from, a ground based catapult launching mechanism would be far better, IMO. (Catapult as in aircraft carriers, not as in onager).

Besides, human carrying kites already existed, I believe, and hot air balloons are a distinct possibility. Not sure how much more useful your hypothetical glider is going to be.


Other propellants makes me think- when, exactly, was nitroglycerine invented? I know the official patent date is 1864 or thereabouts, but other bits of chemistry lore floating around suggest it's not that hard to synthesize by accident; may have been discovered on numerous occasions before that, during the age of alchemical nonsense, with two major caveats.

It's a powerful, highly volatile explosive. Anyone who stumbled across it and had no idea what it was or how to treat it...there may be a good rational explanation for all those mediaeval alchemists who "stumbled across something man was not meant to know, and were torn apart by demons." Fluorine in the nineteenth century had a similar reputation; it was said that you could tell who had just managed to isolate elemental fluorine by reading the obituary columns.

So, in the field of developing other propellants then- if you can stop the alchemists blowing themselves up, yes, that will make the basis (with stabilisers, lots of stabilisers) of a successful solid propellant. It's roll of the dice time when it would be safely invented- arguably the official date is 1864 because laboratory procedure had developed to the point where it could at last be safely done. If it could be fluked earlier, well.

Can guncotton or nitroglycerine be discovered by the Chinese? Certainly. Is it usable? I doubt it. Nitrated explosives like that need really, really pure nitric acid to be reliable. There's a reason smokeless powder took so long to go from the lab to the field. As for making nitroglycerine into a rocket fuel. Have fun. Even when made into dynamite it still explodes, instead of burning. What you want in a rocket is burning, not exploding.
 

scholar

Banned
If something crazy happens they might get a flying machine that can glide and gain altitude with the help of rockets, although it may be a stretch, it would be a pretty big deal for future technology. Think Wright brothers flyer with rockets to replace propeller and engines. Dangerous, but effective for reconnaissance.
They had hot air balloons since the 2nd century AD, its just they never really did anything with it beyond basic reconnaissance in the past. One could liken it to the Greek Steam Engine.
 
They had hot air balloons since the 2nd century AD, its just they never really did anything with it beyond basic reconnaissance in the past.

What are your sources for this, especially the claim that balloons were actually used for military reconnaissance by 2nd Century Chinese? I find it virtually impossible to believe that, if such a simple and useful military technology was actually used to any great extent by anyone in the 2nd century, it would spread...to India, Persia, eventually Rome...
 
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