(military) technological progress without WW 2

This thread is not about discussing the notion of whether or not war is a social and technological catalyst. I personally believe WW II, apart from advancements in specific fields, was a net loss given that 50-60 million people died and the famines, genocides, political instability, civil wars, tyrannical regimes and failure of decolonization that it resulted in. Who knows how many scientists, inventors, artists and other innovators wound up in a shallow grave somewhere and how many advanced industrial facilities and scientific centres were destroyed by bombs? World War II cost trillions of dollars in current US dollars that could've been spent on something else.

For the sake of argument we'll be assuming a 1938 PoD in which Hitler is removed in a coup for going to war over the Sudetenland, thus avoiding WW II. With the above in mind, some (military) technologies we know today would've been developed slower or perhaps not at all. A number of them have found their way into civilian life later on. To list a few:

Nuclear weapons: the fear that Nazi Germany was developing nuclear weapons, led to the Manhattan Project. This push led to the development of an atomic bomb in only four years time by 1945. Nuclear fission found its way into the area of electricity production. With no pressing need to achieve nuclear weapons there's no telling when nuclear weapons would've been developed. Would Tube Alloys result in Britain becoming the first nuclear power somewhere in the 1950s or 60s or would someone else like the US, Germany or the Soviets beat them to it? And what about nuclear energy for peaceful uses?

Aviation: jetfighter technology wasn't much invested in as the existing turboprop designs sufficed in the beginning of WW 2, until later in the war a push was made to get the Me 262 in service (after Hitler's fighter-bomber folly was done away with) as well as the Gloster Meteor. How much longer would turboprop designs have remained dominant in air forces world wide and in civil aviation given that by the mid-40s they'd reached the maximum of their potential?

Rocketry: when it became clear the war might be lost and with no way to retaliate against massive aerial bombing of German cities by the Allies, Nazi Germany resolved to develop ballistic missiles to strike back with. They managed to construct the world's very first long-range guided ballistic missiles. While not a war winner and probably even a net detractor from Germany's war effort, Wernher von Braun further developed the V-2 in the United States, leading to new designs that propelled us into outer space. Given the ridicule Robert Goddard (another rocket scientist) experienced, it's unclear how missile development would progress and if we'd see space travel later then IOTL or not at all.

Tanks: in 1939 the warring countries went to war with tanks weighing 20-30 tonnes at the most, with thin armour often no thicker than 50 mm and ditto main armament. By 1945, the main combatants all had designs twice as big, armour sometimes over 100 mm and main guns with calibres between 76 and 122 mm. Would tanks have gotten this heavy so quickly without WW 2 and when?

Radar: though civilian aviation would probably necessitate its development as air travel increases, my guess its development would be slower.

Computing: codebreaking required computing power unlike anything ever seen before WW II. While a single Iphone 12 or Samsung Galaxy S20 probably has more computing power than all of Bletchley Park put together, the revolutionizing modern processors came decades after the war and the real precursors to internet were developed after WW II too, I do think we have a lot to thank these early pioneers for.

On the other hand I believe there are also technologies and developments that would've been developed faster and/or better without WW2:

Automobiles: without the destruction of their automobile industries in the war, European and Asian production was held back for years while American brands could continue unimpeded as their factories and design bureaus still stood. With continued European competition more advanced, innovative car designs would probably hit the market sooner.

Television: production of cathode ray tubes was not exactly a priority in WW2. While the first TV sets as we would recognize them appeared in the 1930s, TV only replaced radio and newspapers as the primary medium for influencing public opinion in the 1950s. Colour TV would have to wait until the mid/late sixties and the first recording technology, videotapes, entered home use in the 70s. How would this develop if mass use of television was brought forward by a decade? John Logie Baird had a 600-line colour TV ready in 1944, but post-war reconstruction meant there was no money left for it, thus this is IMO, one of the technologies that was very certainly retarded by the war.

Aviation: whilst jetfighters were developed in WW2, many countries saw their aviation industries devastated. Perhaps this would offset each other (?)

And there are probably plenty of other examples. Discuss.
 
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Well, technological progress regarding a war is very complex, as I've figured out; on one hand, as you've pointed out, it drives technological innovation and invention for the need to have the edge in combat (tanks, planes, nuclear weapons, etc.) but on the other, it deprives the factor for said technological progress, especially in regards to financial costs. Though when it comes to nuclear war, the answer is more clear-cut: it almost completely wrecks technological progress and that's if both combatants have enough weapons to reduce each other into third world crap-holes in said war.
 
Well, technological progress regarding a war is very complex, as I've figured out; on one hand, as you've pointed out, it drives technological innovation and invention for the need to have the edge in combat (tanks, planes, nuclear weapons, etc.) but on the other, it deprives the factor for said technological progress, especially in regards to financial costs. Though when it comes to nuclear war, the answer is more clear-cut: it almost completely wrecks technological progress and that's if both combatants have enough weapons to reduce each other into third world crap-holes in said war.

But without WW2, we wouldn't see the development of nuclear weapons, now would we? One of the many questions I have is when they would've been developed without WW II, assuming they'd be developed at all.
 
Definitely better nuclear reactors since they'd come a decade or more before nukes were developed in ttl's 60s or 70s and be more normalized.
 
But without WW2, we wouldn't see the development of nuclear weapons, now would we? One of the many questions I have is when they would've been developed without WW II, assuming they'd be developed at all.
I think the military use of nuclear power is obvious, considering that the military would be an investor from the beginning of serious work on nuclear power. Nuclear reactors for submarines might very well still exist, and most crucially, scientists will more easily be able to talk to each other without the war and wartime censorship. And once you have a nuclear reactor, then you inevitably have someone saying "can we make this a bomb" to which the answer is "yes". What differs is the sort of reactors in use than OTL. So I think by 1960 you have nuclear weapons and a successful nuclear test, but they're likely thought of as just "really really big bombs" with a dash of chemical weapon thrown in rather than a weapon that can literally end the world.

That kind of thinking is obviously very dangerous, so much that having a WWII in the 1950s or 1960s of TTL might lead to a nuclear holocaust, bioweapons release, or some other horror. USSR vs China would be the obvious major war.
 
IIRC prior to the Manhattan project nuclear research was focused on civilian and military reactors. Of course the project also accelerated the development of the first reactors since they were necessary for some parts of the program, but if bombs do not get too much attention there may be a much greater focus on reactors, which would also not be constrained by the requirement to produce fissile material for bombs.

Assuming that bombs did not come until the 1950s or 60s, this could allow better reactor types to eventually see use.
 
Maybe we could see seaplanes remaining the aircraft of choice for the long range travel for some time? I mean, without the need to build huge number of 4 engine bombers or their airports, the seaplanes might get some more development and extra years of service. We are also unlikely to see large numbers of transport aircraft being made availlable to civilians, as there are not going to be thousands of C-47s or whatever being sold for nothing and thus kickstarting the new era in air travel.
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As for military developments, I do think that motorization/mechanization is going to be the primary goal of the various armies, as British and French are going that way already. Halftracks may remain in service for longer, if the NBC protection is a requirement that will become a neccessity later then IOTL, and I do think that various wheeled, open-topped APCs could make an appearence as a cheaper option when compared to half and fully tracked vehicles, at least for smaller, less rich nations. The various (half-and-full) tracked vehicles are likely to be put to use as artillery and supply vehicles, where they would do the most good.
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In regards to infantry weapons, a gradual turn to semi-automatic rifles could happen. US is doing so before the POD (Garand), and French are right behind them, with their MAS-40, Soviets and Italians too, with Soviet SVT-40 (and other designs dating before the POD) and Italian Armaguerra Mod.39. Fabrique Nationale stands to make a killing in sales, as what would IOTL become SAFN-49 was under the development before WW2, and quite a few smaller nations could adopt it as their primary rifle as time goes on.

GPMG concept might emerge later though, with LMG/HMG concept lingering for longer. MG34 is not as widely known, and various magazine fed LMGs thus remain the backbone of the infantry firepower for some time to come. Even IOTL, French kept their FM M24/29s until mid-60s, while British Bren soldiered (in a limited manner) until '92, and here I really doubt we will see a massive push to replace them as soon as possible.

Anti Tank weapons are going to be interesting though. Without massive war and pressing need for infantry to have a weapon capable of taking on tanks, it is going to be very hard to guess what could happen in that regard. Thing is, we may see AT Guns lingering in widespread service for longer, even IOTL late 50ies saw AT gun development, and here we could see the same continuing. That is not to say that lighter AT weapons will not make an appearance, French were playing around with HEAT rifle Grenades, recoiless guns are around (Soviets and Germans), so it is reasonable to assume that they could fill the niche of Light AT weapons, on a Battalion/Company level at least.

Thoughts? I am far from expert, so I just threw out some of my ideas.
 
Automobiles: without the destruction of their automobile industries in the war, European and Asian production was held back for years while American brands could continue unimpeded as their factories and design bureaus still stood. With continued European competition more advanced, innovative car designs would probably hit the market sooner.
It seems likely to be true for European brands, but less so for Japan, which got a fairly enormous boost from the U.S. during the Korean War. Also, European marques got an edge in production due to WW2: their old tooling was destroyed, and they had to start fresh, with all-new tooling (in the main), while the U.S. soldiered on. Also, without the mania for export postwar, Britain might be more "closed" than OTL. In addition, without postwar steel shortages (or quotas), it seems likely the use of fiberglass (for the Corvette, to name just one) would be lessened, if not eliminated. And, without the production interruption, would designs have been more evolutionary? That is, would the slab-sided '47 Nash, '49 Ford, or the iconic '49 Merc not have happened? :eek:
Television: production of cathode ray tubes was not exactly a priority in WW2. While the first TV sets as we would recognize them appeared in the 1930s, TV only replaced radio and newspapers as the primary medium for influencing public opinion in the 1950s. Colour TV would have to wait until the mid/late sixties and the first recording technology, videotapes, entered home use in the 70s. How would this develop if mass use of television was brought forward by a decade? John Logie Baird had a 600-line colour TV ready in 1944, but post-war reconstruction meant there was no money left for it, thus this is IMO, one of the technologies that was very certainly retarded by the war.
I would argue the mass production of CRTs brought costs down, as well as training very large numbers of repairmen and production technicians, who would be needed in the growing industry.

I wonder if the dominance of NBC in radio would preclude the creation of a Mutual or DuMont TV network. If TV network creation is delayed, it might avoid dominance or manipulation by the movie studios.

Lack of radar development does mean it's likely the microwave oven doesn't happen on the OTL schedule, if it does at all.

Lack of WW2 might well mean the 1948 Paramount decision happens sooner. In that event, U.S. TV networks are likely to benefit from access to more films (as studios scramble to be profitable, renting out their catalogs), & to see more production companies (as Poverty Row turns from Bs & serials to TV, which is very similar in style, scheduling, & production cost {or production value...}). What that means for TV networks is unclear to me...but it could mean better '40s & '50s TV, or more networks.

Civil aviation almost certainly still relies on large, long-range flying boats, absent the large numbers of airfields being built, for a decade or more.

Does General Aviation still develop much the same? With the (OTL postwar) recovery happening around 1940, does something like the Cessna 195 or 140 happen then? Does the Super Cub? The Apache? Comanche? Is the Norseman replaced by a better type in the '40s, or does it persist?

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In ref nuclear weapons, they are going to happen eventually, but are likely to be delayed for cost & practicality reasons. The Brits had, by the '30s, already figured out they were likely to be possible, & the prestige of having the was going to make them attractive (perhaps necessary, for a true world power).

The prospect of them being more readily used is the scary one, & IMO, they are more likely to be. TTL, they're also likely to be used in larger numbers (maybe much larger), the first time; that, IMO, will so frighten the survivors, they'll never be used again, & nuclear arms control won't be the superpower faceoff circus it was OTL: it will be a real thing, & everybody will be on board. (Given that's a major war in Europe, or with the Soviets, in the '50s, but before there are enough to turn the planet into an ice cube or a cinder, :eek::eek: recovery is going to be a long process. That makes this TL unlike anything any of us probably imagine, even if we've changed nothing else.)

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Thinking of Britain & Europe, does Britain go into eclipse on schedule, or does not being more/less impoverished by WW2 change that?

IMO, Europe, without the U.S. umbrella, is likely to be more divided, poorer, more contentious, & more dominated (or threatened) by Germany, & less obviously under the Soviet shadow, compared to OTL.
 
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Aviation: jetfighter technology wasn't much invested in as the existing turboprop designs sufficed in the beginning of WW 2, until later in the war a push was made to get the Me 262 in service (after Hitler's fighter-bomber folly was done away with) as well as the Gloster Meteor. How much longer would turboprop designs have remained dominant in air forces world wide and in civil aviation given that by the mid-40s they'd reached the maximum of their potential?

Not really, AFAIK, the turboprop has a big downside compared to piston engines and turbojet engines, in that it is not very flexible.

It has a narrow enveloppe (speed, altitude,..) where it is very good, and if out of it's "peak performance" enveloppe, it is not really an efficient engine.
In addition, turboprop are far slower to react to throttle changes than other engines (regime changes are to be done slowly)

So turboprops are very good for airplanes that fly at "constant" speed and altitude, but for combat aircraft, they are not really good (it is why there were very few turboprop bombers, and nearly no turboprop fighter, while this type of engine still dominate transport and maritime patrol aircrafts).

As soon as the propeller reached it's limits for high speed aircrafts, the adoption of the jet engine was inevitable.
 
The limits you've placed on causation mean that you're going to be fed your own output. When I speculate regarding Dubček being forced left by the working class, I'm open to reasonable alternate methods of causative analysis, regardless of my opinions on boards other than this. When you rule out the central historiographical issue in the first post, you are literally begging the question.
 
While war does make military R&D more important, it can often freeze the implementation of certain technologies as they are not yet suitable for total war/multi-million-man armies' requirements, when they could have been implemented earlier in peacetime.

This aside, the impact of French R&D not being effectively stopped for 4 years and seriously impacted for a few more is fairly substantial. Late 30's France had possibly the most comprehensive rearmament/military R&D program and the French had made greater or earlier progress in many technologies than other countries.

Ramjet development comes to mind. The Leduc tech demonstrator was ordered in 1937 but its construction was stopped during the war and it only was finished in 1946. In peacetime it may well have first flown in 1943 or even late 1942. Moreover the excessive number of programs during the Cold War (and the economic limitations of having been devastated in the 40s and having to get back up to prewar GDP) meant that France stopped the development of a technology they probably pioneered, and instead America took the lead.

No WW2 may well mean greater and longer development of ramjets in France, which could lead to interesting military developments (hypervelocity and long range missiles). Might even be a net plus for the technology overall by 2021.
The G1 tank program will likely not be cut in peacetime and even if it doesn't lead to a production vehicle, it would still be a great tech demonstrator by late 1941-1942 for:
- torsion bars
- counterrotating cupolas and gunner override systems
- dual-axis stabilizers
- autoloaders
- optical rangefinders

OTL most of those technologies weren't tested until 1945-46 in the US.

Diesel engines will probably become the military norm sooner than the late 1950s-1960s. Pretty much everyone had come to the conclusion that they were better before the war and they were spreading to the civilian market since the mid 1930s. However the lack of suitable diesel engines or sufficient production capacity for them and the enormous logistics requirements of WW2 and the precarious early Cold War situation meant that they took much longer to be fully implemented.

Most likely diesels would have started becoming common by the mid to late 1940s without the war, especially with the introduction of entire families of them (Detroit Diesels, French Asters promotted by AMX which was likely to become the primary French armor developper anyway, anything Italian).

And since AMX was mentionned, one more French thing of relevance: special ammunition and advanced armor development.

The French were again possibly at the forefront of APDS and HEAT ammunition development. Now APDS itself will probably only be brought forward by a year tops, but shaped charge research was pretty important. While armies could favor a slower increase in vehicle weight, I'd point out that pretty much everyone was on the way to 30 tonnes and more. The Soviets had passed 45 with the KV-1 which was in development since 1937-38, and France was looking at 45-ton heavies in 1937 but had to cancel them in favor of designs that would be available sooner. Armor thickness will thus still increase to a degree that makes further HEAT research relevant.

AMX is interesting in this regard because their cruiser tank in development since 1938 was going to be extremely progressive and possibly an excellent tech demonstrator:
- very optimized and curvy cast shape
- spaced and fuel armor for the sides.

The latter is the most interesting part because this type of armor didn't see much testing during WW2, but here it could very well see some actual applications by the 1950s instead of the 60s and 70s.
 

mial42

Gone Fishin'
As for nuclear weapons, I suspect that the USSR would actually get there first. OTL, virtually all the work for making the Soviet bomb was done by Soviet scientists, since Beria didn't trust the intelligence he got from the Manhattan project. The Manhattan project espionage's main effects on making the Soviet bomb was double checking work the Soviets already did, so I actually don't think it would be delayed much with no WW2. It might even be accelerated, since WW2 caused some slight issues in the Soviet Union which would be butterflied. In the mean time, the US will be way behind OTL due to no sharing with the British or Manhattan project. The British will probably be the second most advanced and slightly ahead of OTL with no war, but they were ultimately far behind the Soviets and have way less resources then the Soviets in general so I think they'd get there second. I'd expect the news of the Soviet bomb (once it gets out; it might take a while with how secretive the USSR could be) would cause a collective pants-crapping on the part of every other major country and crash atomic programs; in order I'd expect you'd go British, then US soon after (far, far greater resources then anyone else and possible help from the British), then probably the French, Germany, and Japan.

The geopolitical effects of a Soviet first bomb could be... interesting. I'm a firm believer that while the USSR was not above military expansion if it was easy and cheap, they were not about to start WW2 (or WW3), but if there's anything that might change that, it would be a nuclear monopoly. There would be a strong incentive to "strike while the iron is hot" before someone else gets the bomb, and the Soviets would probably have the most powerful conventional military in the world by the late 1940s anyways. Combined with no general discrediting of aggressive conquest from WW2, and this might be the only way you get the stereotypical "Red hordes comes West" scenario beloved of Red Alert players and Tom Clancy enthusiasts alike.
 
Transplant surgery, biomaterials, and chemotherapy would all lag as a result of no world war 2.

Transplant Surgery:
In during the battle of Britain, there was a surplus of young men with mortal heart injuries. These were given to doctors who could do whatever they wanted with them, because they were dead anyways. This directly resulted in the creation of the heart-lung machine, which is necessary for much heart surgery and heart transplantation
Also, nazi data on transplant rejection.

Biomaterials:
The war was a giant experiment in putting a diverse array of materials into the bodies of young men. Some were found to cause little inflammation, for example the ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene used in B-17 ball turrets. This material is STILL used in human joint replacements.

Chemotherapy:
A bombing raid released mustard gas stored on a US ship. Those exposed had reduced counts of lymphocytes and precancerous lymphocytes. This, combined with earlier research, resulted in the R&D program that created the first chemotherapy agent, mustine.
 
If there's a demand for it in the free market its gonna be devolped. Rule of thumb if someone can make a good buisness selling a techology its going be devopled.
 
Something I'd forgotten about is heavily affected: hot rodding in the U.S. (& Canada). The Army (& AAF) brought lots of men together who could share ideas & experience. It also taught lots of them skilled use of precision machinery, which they applied to their cars postwar, making them much higher quality than the slapdash efforts before. Between the two, you might credit the war with creating the NHRA, & modern hot rodding.

The war also had a significant effect on land speed racing in the immediate postwar era: converted belly tanks were very popular lakesters.

You might also credit it with creating the Hell's Angels, as former AAF fliers looked for the thrills they weren't getting any longer. (Or, at least, that's the story I've read; I can't vouch for its authenticity.)
 
But without WW2, we wouldn't see the development of nuclear weapons, now would we? One of the many questions I have is when they would've been developed without WW II, assuming they'd be developed at all.
Fission bombs an obvious possability (the Brits. knew that pre-ww2) -- reactors first, then plutonium fission bombs in the sub-mega-ton range
The development of the potentially world destroying multi-megaton fusion bombs were as a result of the cold war ... no WW2, do we still have US - Soviet stand-off ?? (If so, there will be fusion bombs)

EDIT - no ww2 will mean much more focus on civilian market goods .. hey, by 1940 or so maybe the average German really will get the Volkswagen he's been paying for !
 
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maybe the average German really will get the Volkswagen he's been paying for !
If Hitler is removed in '38, does the new government cancel the KdF-Wagen project? :eek: Depending on the timing, the Fallersleben plant might not even have begun construction yet, & OTL the first cars weren't delivered until 1939.

If it's kept around, it's a good idea for Germany. It wouldn't be the sales bonanza of OTL, absent the lack of cars due to no war, tho.

There is a chance Heer still buys some as staff cars. Also a chance VW develops the 4wd Type 87 & Type 82 ("Jeep"). (Trying to at least approach the OP goal, here.:openedeyewink: )
 
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So I think by 1960 you have nuclear weapons and a successful nuclear test, but they're likely thought of as just "really really big bombs" with a dash of chemical weapon thrown in rather than a weapon that can literally end the world.
Even in the 1930s nuclear weapons were thought of as "special" (so were chemical weapons, actually), so I don't think this would actually change even without Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Especially since the literal fallout of testing was the main channel through which nuclear bombs transitioned into "world enders" in OTL's popular and military culture, not their employment on Japanese cities.
 
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