Military Tactics Without Gunpowder

[Earling]

Crossbow rates of fire held to be under estimated; in a demonstration a crossbowmen fired 8 bolts in the time that longbowman took to shoot 12 arrows.

Can I ask for more information regarding this demonstration? Thats an extremely high rate of fire for crossbows when most speak of (and demonstrate) a rate of fire between three and five if not lower.

I suspect a team with two crossbows, one man loading while the other aims and fires could put up that sort of rate of fire, but one man loading, aiming and firing in under eight seconds seems more or less impossible given the technology at the time. If you do have two people teams, you have to consider two archers could be firing twenty four arrows in the same time period. Archers also take up less space, so you could fit more of them into a "line" if you were seeking to emulate musketry tactics.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

But how do you power the damned thing? That is invariably the problem with automatic tension/torsion shooters. Either you have a one or two-man gunnery team, then the power is going to9 be so low that it will compare unfavourably to other weapons. Or you give it enough power, in which case it takes forever to cock using muscle power.

Though a 2-beat outboard motor...

Or I suppose you could just use horsepower, that could work fairly well.

8 shots a minute does seem like a very high figure to me, though fire rates can vary widely depending on the size of the crossbow and the cocking mechanism. I suppose if the user was very skilled, the bow was light, and it had a very efficient cocking mechanism then such a fire rate might be possible.

 

[carlton_bach]

Or I suppose you could just use horsepower, that could work fairly well.

I can't see how the transmission would be handled. The weapon needs a continuous power feed and still be fully mobile. Even with modern metallurgy, that's a pretty tall order (a vertical driveshaft under the pivot point with a cardanic transmission might work).

 

[Michael B]

But how do you power the damned thing? That is invariably the problem with automatic tension/torsion shooters. Either you have a one or two-man gunnery team, then the power is going to9 be so low that it will compare unfavourably to other weapons. Or you give it enough power, in which case it takes forever to cock using muscle power.

http://www.romanarmy.net/artillery.htm

I saw the programme and the bolt shooter was powered by winding a handle. The bolts were like small spears. Given the power of normal bolt shooters they are going to punch through most armour at a range greater than a bolt.

It is going to be unfavourable with gunpower weapons, but not with bows, staff slings, etc.

 

[stevep]

http://www.romanarmy.net/artillery.htm

I saw the programme and the bolt shooter was powered by winding a handle. The bolts were like small spears. Given the power of normal bolt shooters they are going to punch through most armour at a range greater than a bolt.

It is going to be unfavourable with gunpower weapons, but not with bows, staff slings, etc.

Michael

I think I remember seeing this programme a year or so back. Was it describing them being used against British hill forts during Claudius's invasion of Britain? However I thought it implied that the Romans stopped using them because they found their eastern auxiliary archers were more effective. [Although in the sort of situation we're discussing it might be that with a lack of cheap archers, or to defeat medieval heavy knights it might be practical].

Steve

 

[JHPier]

But anyone who claims that European martial arts were unsophisticated or primitive has no clue. Sidney Anglo: The Martial Arts in Renaissance Europe (or just about anything by said author) should work for starters.

Indeed. See also here: http://www.thearma.org/essays.htm
(The people on this site tend to get a bit miffed at all the hoopla eastern martial arts get)

 

[carlton_bach]

http://www.romanarmy.net/artillery.htm

I saw the programme and the bolt shooter was powered by winding a handle. The bolts were like small spears. Given the power of normal bolt shooters they are going to punch through most armour at a range greater than a bolt.

It is going to be unfavourable with gunpower weapons, but not with bows, staff slings, etc.

I've seen that one. AFAIK it has never been shot at anywhere near its full power. At least all the footage shows it strung well below capacity. If you watch legionary reenactors cocking a scorpio you can see that it takes considerable effort and time. The repeater as shown on TV isn't anywhere near as strong.

 

[monkey]

A self loading balista seems an overly complex and pointless solution as most of the time is taken winding the string back and manualy fitting a bolt can be done in less than a second. I havent seen a scorpio reconstuction on TV where the bolt dosnt get stuck in the shield.

To me there dose not seem to be any significant change in the non-gunpowder arms and armour in the 15th, 16th, and 17th centurys mainly just a few changes in fasion. So in a non gunpowder world the ever acumulating stock piles of arms and armour in medieval castles, with good maintenance, will remain usefull for distibuting to new troops in times of war for centuries. Some of the armour found in the grave at the battle of Gotland were up to 700 years old when buried.