Military Development Absent Great War

I wonder if the naval race continues between Britain and Germany, or whether there is an attempt at formal or informal limitations towards the end of the decade?

The RN probably doesn't shift to the "all or nothing" armour scheme and continues on a course of slow evolution of design and the "large light cruisers" would be avoided as well.
 
I wonder if the naval race continues between Britain and Germany, or whether there is an attempt at formal or informal limitations towards the end of the decade?

The RN probably doesn't shift to the "all or nothing" armour scheme and continues on a course of slow evolution of design and the "large light cruisers" would be avoided as well.

I think the naval race would continue but at a much reduced pace. Neither is able or willing to maintain those kinds of expenditures indefinitely. Various proposals for ending the naval race between Britain and Germany had been made during the preceding decade but all rejected. As long as Wilhelm II is Kaiser I don't see anything that would change that.
 
More on the US Army

What is very unlikely to develop in the US is a modern system of organized reserves. The Federal army would remain a small group of active service soldiers without any organized reserve. Wartime mobilization would continue to depend on the states militias that were mediocre by mid 19th standards and with units that were oriented towards local politics or were predominatly social clubs. The trend of increasing the skill of the officer corps through better schools and self education requirements would continue. the mexican intervention of 1914 would encourage that as it showed improvements since the 1898 Spanish War were not as great as hoped.

The USN I cant address at all. Other than the development of the Marines I have no idea what was going on 1910-20.
 
I think the naval race would continue but at a much reduced pace. Neither is able or willing to maintain those kinds of expenditures indefinitely. Various proposals for ending the naval race between Britain and Germany had been made during the preceding decade but all rejected. As long as Wilhelm II is Kaiser I don't see anything that would change that.

..and that guy lived through the 1930s.
 
I think the naval race would continue but at a much reduced pace. Neither is able or willing to maintain those kinds of expenditures indefinitely. Various proposals for ending the naval race between Britain and Germany had been made during the preceding decade but all rejected. As long as Wilhelm II is Kaiser I don't see anything that would change that.
Actually the Germans were willing to end the naval arms race quite early. In 1912 they proposed to accept the British naval superiority in exchange for a neutrality guarantee in any defensive war. It were the British who rejected that. As the Russian expansion of military and infrastructure, which prompted them to do that, will likely continue, I think the Germans will get increasingly desparate to achieve that. Tirpitz, considered even in Germany to be partially at fault for the failure of the 1912 negotiations, was afterwards largely isolated. The Kaiser was in some ways a megalomaniac, but not outright stupid.
 
IMO, from 1914 on, you either have some understanding to reduce international tension, or war. Reduced tension will also reduce the pace of military progress.
There will be technicall progress, but in some areas it will be civilian driven. Airships as luxury long range transport are likely, with military aplications to follow. Submarines (purely military driven) were evolving fast (diesel engines, etc) and would probably evolve only a little slower than OTL.
Motorization would be much slower, and one thing that will require careful study is the evolution of railways in a world were the massive war driven progress in the automobile/aviation industry does not happen.
 
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BlondieBC

Banned
I disagree that these wouldn't develop. Develop more slowly certainly but they would still occur. Both depth charges and sonar were in development before WW1 and once you have depth charges it isn't much of a leap to develop a forward throwing ASW weapon.

With regards to aircraft carriers I don't think they will be retarded as much as some people think. They will go hand in hand with the development of aircraft and will appear as soon as aircraft reach the point where they can carry a useful payload.

While they may have been in development, I doubt they would be deployed. Whatever existed in the labs, the RN ASW abilities were a joke in August 1914, and there was little desire to deploy improvements. The RN like to test all new technologies, but often would wait for other nations to deploy them first. The concept is basically, "We at the RN have a bigger budget, better men, and better traditions. We can save money by letting others work out the bugs in new technologies, and we don't have to worry about catching up since we have a bigger budget and we got it to work in tests".
 
Airships as luxury long range transport are likely, with military aplications to follow.
Airliners too, Sikorsky managed to get a few built in 1913, so it's not beyond belief that the other nations, without the distraction of war, would also develop them.
 
No war in 14 then there is a fundamental shift maybe in Germany's attitude in the timescale considered.

There was a feeling that Russian rearmament was to be completed in ?16 and after that the threat from the east would/could preclude the offensive planning of earlier years.

There is probably a German need for more troops. A willingness to stop the naval race which would tend to be on British terms I guess as the German need would be to free up resources to meet a land threat is greater.

Followed by a german search for a way to win against continental powers through offensive action.

Semi auto rifles/LMG and something decent not the 05/18 - Bergmann MG15? or 08/18. They will try and motorise and improve signals a lot and that will mean need to produce artillery that can use truck/tracked prime movers.

Others will follow suite but all limited by money and the obvious need to expand air forces. Too useful for reconnaissance to ignore.

All will have worse artillery doctrines and non gun equipment.

Navies will progress most development per OTL and probably close to the timescale with more experimentation on A/S and air power. The airpower may not actually be much different from OTL.

For Britain whatever the settlement with Germany there will still be a need to defeat an enemy fleet in a defended port and trade protection/power projection and with fixed battlefleet sizes probably more emphasis on subs and aircraft. I think a combination of the need to protect the battlefleet and the anchorages from subs may lead to german research into A/S techniques rather than subs as a priority.
 
I do agree with those who say that, absent WW1, pressure will eventually build for some sort of naval reductions treaty, just because of the cost of capital ship construction. In addition the rise of other major naval powers such as the US and Japan would be seen as destablizing threats to both British and German calculations and the continued development of alternative naval systems such as aircraft carriers, long-range airships, and submarines (even without battle-tested doctrine) might lead major naval powers to question the investement thay are making in bigger and more costly capital ships.

That said, I think most weapons systems that were developed in WW1 would still be designed and developed. The difference would be the development of doctrines for using them, many of which only can be evaluated in battle. This would affect the nature of how and when these weapons were introduced.

I think armies would become mechanized just as quickly as OTL (which really wasn't all that rapidly anyway). Motor vehicles would still be developed and improved and anyone would see that trucks, cars, motorcycles, and motorized gun carriages would eventually supplant horses for for military purposes.

One big difference, is that absent the experience of WW1 and its demonstration of the effectiveness of machine guns, military doctrine would remain more focused on mobile warfare, with horse cavalry being supplement by motorized infantry carriers and armored cars. The whole doctrine of trench warfare and the human cost of offensives would not have been shown

Tanks (armored mobile gun carriers to support infantry) might not initially be the massive, slow behemoths deployed to break thru tranch lines, but be smaller, more agile light tanks.

Technologically, aircraft development would still be driven by commericial factors, so the basic technology or airplanes and airships would develop in a similar manner as OTL, although with some detail differences.

However, with no aerial warfare examples existing from which to develop doctrine, I think most militaries would not have incorporated aircraft as offensive weapons to the extent in OTL, their main value still being seen for reconnaissance, scouting, high speed transport, and limited bombing/harassment of ground forces. Once it becomes apparent that aircraft will be fighting each other to control airspace above the battlefield, my guess is aircraft designers and militay leaders will flounder around a lot longer than OTL before settling in on the single-seat tractor biplane as the ideal fighting plane. Expect to see a lot more multiplace and multipurpose warplanes intended to fight with multiple gun batteries, rather than "fighters" that use their guns by aiming the entire airplane at the target. Perhaps the whole notion of synchronizing MGs to fire thru the propellor disk might not occur to people without the experience of aerial combat in WW1.

I also think the development of really high-altutude aircraft will be retarded considerably.

Airships (both non-rigid and Zeppelin types) will probably be overvalued for their extremely long range and high endurance, leading to their retention far longer as naval scouts, anti-submarive pickets, and perhaps long-distance transports.

Fleets would incorporate aircraft carriers about as early as OTL, but with a doctine aimed solely on extending the long-range recon of cruiser divisions and tactical scouting for naval gunfire. Paradoxically, because a premium would be on smaller airplanes for shipboard use, navies might actually lead the way in developing compact high-performance aircraft such as single-place tractor biplanes.

I think submarines are a real wild card. Absent the specific example of Germany deciding to turn to unrestricted submarine warfare to counter the British blockade, the notion of using submarines primarily against merchant shipping might not occur. Submarines might still be seen primarily as coastal craft - with perhaps some larger types developed for use as naval scouts, pickets, and so forth. Since the presumtion would remain that any use of submarines against commerce would abide by existing prize rules, any submaines intended for that purpose would be large "cruiser" type boats, optimized for surface combat and handling prize crews and captives.
 
Perhaps the whole notion of synchronizing MGs to fire thru the propellor disk might not occur to people without the experience of aerial combat in WW1.

It might not even be necessary; compare World War II, where many fighters had their guns mounted on the wings or otherwise where they could fire without intersecting the propeller arc. No call for synchronization then. Obviously this only works if you can mount guns on the wings, though.

You could also see more pusher aircraft. They were tested during World War I OTL, and many of the super-high performance piston aircraft developed during World War II then abandoned because of the jet were pushers. There were certain performance advantages, IIRC.

I also think the development of really high-altutude aircraft will be retarded considerably.

It seems that there are very good reasons to develop super-high altitude aircraft without the war as well. Leaving aside questions of stunts or other civilian attempts, reconnaissance at least benefits from high altitude--to avoid ground fire, if nothing else.
 
zoomers

Subs will probably end up in the same mess as IJN interwar subs.

Navies will exercise though a few things will become apparent. Having air cover will deter submarines from approaching the battlefleet, and having aircraft able to attack subs will follow.

Also having a large multi engine aircraft able to mount multiple gun batteries may be seen as the ultimate air superiority fighter. Briefly.
 
You could also see more pusher aircraft. They were tested during World War I OTL, and many of the super-high performance piston aircraft developed during World War II then abandoned because of the jet were pushers. There were certain performance advantages, IIRC.


While there really is no evidence to support the notion that prototype WW2 pushers (the Japanese J7W1, US P-55 and P-56, etc) had any performance advantages over traditional piston-engined planes, your basic point is well taken. The Wright Flyer itself was a canard, and through 1916, pushers were common designs for fighters and observation craft. I agree that it is very likely canards and pushers of various configurations would continue to be popular.
 
Also having a large multi engine aircraft able to mount multiple gun batteries may be seen as the ultimate air superiority fighter. Briefly.

Completely agreed. The notion that a single pilot trying to aim his whole airplane at the enemy works better than an airplane with dedicated gunners whose sole job is to shoot guns and not fly at the same time is not inherently logical. It was only proved by combat in WW1. Without this WW1 experience, technological improvements in warplanes very well might have led increasingly large, heavy, and more strongly constructed warplanes optimized primarily for stability as gun turret platforms and survivability, rather than fast and agile single seat fighters designed for dogfighting.

By 1930, my fanciful image is of mixed metal/wood construction multi-engined biplane or monoplane "battleplanes" with dorsal, ventral, and lateral machine gun turrets or hand-held mountings, armor protection for crew, fuel, and engines, and perhaps even a few large calibre recoiless rifles or 30 mm autocannon to attack ground targets, surface ships, or airships and airplane formations at longer range with flak-type shells. Doctrine might hold that aircraft should fight other aircraft in tight formations so the largest number of guns would always bear on the enemy. Good climb rates and high ceilings would be important because altitude advantage would provide tactical advantages when initiating combat (as they always do for aircraft). Extreme vertical manuevers (loops, Immelmans, hammerheads, etc) would not be common tactics, and in fact warplanes might not even be stressed to accomplish them.
 
Briefly I said Briefly

Well the US persisted with the battleplane into the 40's despite the evidence.

I think things line the Bristol Fighter - a biplane MRCA if there ever was one will be common in the period specified. Up to the early 30's there is no massive speed advantage and until radar or mass use of aircraft the bomber will always get through.

Also no gas warfare or area bombing (except savages obviously).

The real kicker for the Battleplane will be naval air. Very quickly carriers will not be able to mount large aircraft and have to find a solution for dealing with Battleplane recon aircraft. And by the late 20's they will stand a chance.

Expect heavier armament on A/C sooner.
 
I have to question if there will be any realistic evaluation of aircraft vs ships before 1930, or even later? The US had its tests vs the German ships, which were somewhat misinterpreted by each side of the debate. Absent those would anyone else attempt worthwhile tests or exercises that would contradict or question the assumptions of 1910 - 1914?
 

Deleted member 1487

I have to question if there will be any realistic evaluation of aircraft vs ships before 1930, or even later? The US had its tests vs the German ships, which were somewhat misinterpreted by each side of the debate. Absent those would anyone else attempt worthwhile tests or exercises that would contradict or question the assumptions of 1910 - 1914?

Mighty fine question; IOTL the Germans were using air deployed torpedoes and bombs against British ships in the English Channel in 1917-18, so it technically feasible by the 1920s ITTL without the funding push and experience of the Great War; I think it is certainly possible and in fact probable. IIRC the Brits were already experimenting with aircraft carriers, which suggests that they would graduate from just using them as recon platforms to actual weapons of war. Also given that the Jeune Ecole focused on small units to attack the larger, more expensive ships of the enemy, it makes perfect sense to use cheap aircraft to target expensive ships, even small ones like merchant ships. The Germans had given up on the naval race by 1912, so they would likely be looking for a way to even the odds via technology, which leaves aircraft as the perfect weapon; IOTL they had one of the most progressive naval air arms during the war, so clearly they had interest in weaponizing the aircraft for naval purposes. Deploying mines via air was also a major weapon of theirs during the war, so a successful experiment with that could interest the navy into graduating to bombs and torpedoes for cost saving (why risk a ships when a one-man aircraft will do?).
 
Good point about the actual combat experince. Fast forwarding to 1939-1942 we can see there was a 'overestimation' of the effect of airpower vs ships. Usually the examples trotted out are attacks like Taranto or Pearl Harbor, which were tightly planned suprise attacks. More typical of the era was the British October 1939 show the flag sortie into the North sea, where some 300 German bombers failed to locate the enemy let alone hit anything. Even the well trained and relatively large carrier airgroups of the IJN & USN of 1942 had a suprisingly low sortie to hit rate with any weapon/technique.

Absent any real combat experince of WWI it is certain expectations for the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of aircraft will cover a wider & less realistic range.
 
Given Russian rearmament, it is possible German research attention would have shifted away from the brits and toward the east. Perhaps the Germans develop long-range, heavy bombers?
 
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