Military capacity of the Roman Republic

Remember, isn't there a reason tanks and battleships are respected? For their armor. And my experience with my chainmail in battle was consistent that it it was harder to kill me.

But, I don't know the word they used for acting neocon; If it's what I have, why not 'neocon'? And, in fact, the Romans to me behaved neocon, thinking offense was good, for they attacked a Gaulish embassy. And showed the same neonservative Alzheimers; they lost by maybe the basicest flanking meneuver that the Republic lost ever from.
 
The original quote is correct: Caesar raised 14 legions in 49, plus an additional seven in 48.

Thanks for that link, it's very instructive.


Remember, isn't there a reason tanks and battleships are respected? For their armor. And my experience with my chainmail in battle was consistent that it it was harder to kill me.

I see your point, and I'll keep that in mind. I don't want to digress too far from the original subject, but I must point out that armor didn't helped the Romans much against the Parthians. The same way battleships got outmanoeuvred by submarines and light frigates, and tanks got messed up by infantry with the right kind of shoulder-fired missiles. This why I think that the Gauls doesn't necessary need more armor, just to find a way to turn this to their advantage.
 
How on earth is that difficult to imagine? Consider the US Civil War. The Antonian Legions were disbanded in the same way that the Confederates were demobilised, i.e. go home and we'll forget you were on the wrong side, and the Octavian said to his own troops here's a demob bonus* for anyone who want's to leave and and anyone who wants to stay under arms you're heading to the Rhine.


*Paid for by the loot of Egypt.

This isn't feasible. The soldiers would have promptly stood there in shock for a few seconds, and then first laughed in his face until they realized he was serious and then would start resisting. Most Roman soldiers didn't own land. Part of the reason they signed up was that there was an unspoken understanding that they would get land when they were demobilized. That land has to come from somewhere-the late republic is riddled with struggles over demobilization of veterans and procuring land for them. As I said, in 42 BC, the triumvirs had a serious problem with demobilization. They had to evict a lot of people from their land (Ovid and Virgil incidentally among them), which pissed off the Italian countryside. Even then Augustus had trouble finding land, and his soldiers nearly mutinied and killed him. And of course all this anger in the Italian countryside was tapped into by Antony's brother Lucius, who led a rebellion against Augustus in Italy.

Now, that wasn't even when they demobilized most of the army, since they both still needed to keep on a sizable portion to guard against each other. If they had that much trouble then, imagine what trouble Augustus would have demobilizing much more men 15 years later.
 

takerma

Banned
Thanks for that link, it's very instructive.




I see your point, and I'll keep that in mind. I don't want to digress too far from the original subject, but I must point out that armor didn't helped the Romans much against the Parthians. The same way battleships got outmanoeuvred by submarines and light frigates, and tanks got messed up by infantry with the right kind of shoulder-fired missiles. This why I think that the Gauls doesn't necessary need more armor, just to find a way to turn this to their advantage.

Roman armour worked fine vs Parthians. Parthians themselves used extremely heavily armoured cavalry. Without armour Romans would have never beat Parthians and Armenians later on.

Infantry or cavalry covered in mail is very hard to kill in comparison to unarmored people. Not just in melee but arrows and bullets from slings are really deadly weapon vs unarmored troops.

I don't really know much about Gaulish armour. But I bet anyone who could afford mail wore it. Scale historically is very rare armor it does not protect against stabs up at all. Levy that formed bulk of the army probably still wore some sort of armour it was probably just really crappy in comparison to riveted roman mail.
 
Roman armour worked fine vs Parthians. Parthians themselves used extremely heavily armoured cavalry. Without armour Romans would have never beat Parthians and Armenians later on.

Not at first. Ventidius Bassus was the first to actually overhaul how the Roman armies in the east were equipped and fought in the east. Basically, he strengthened the shield that was so easily penetrated by Parthian arrows before, he strengthened the armor, and he drastically increased the number of slingers, archers and other light infantry in the army.

http://www.historynet.com/mark-antonys-persian-campaign.htm
 
This isn't feasible. The soldiers would have promptly stood there in shock for a few seconds, and then first laughed in his face until they realized he was serious and then would start resisting.
The Antonian legions? I can see that loyal legions might have complained if they were demobilised without land, but defeated troops who were taken prisoner were probably quite grateful to have escaped with their lives. I find the "how" even harder than the "why": if they'd been capable of resisting Augustus, they probably wouldn't have lost the war in the first place.

imagine what trouble Augustus would have demobilizing much more men 15 years later.
He undoubtedly had less trouble. As mentioned in both Hygenius and Cassius Dio, towns which had favoured Antony were cleared of inhabitants and repopulated with military colonists.
 
The Antonian legions? I can see that loyal legions might have complained if they were demobilised without land, but defeated troops who were taken prisoner were probably quite grateful to have escaped with their lives. I find the "how" even harder than the "why": if they'd been capable of resisting Augustus, they probably wouldn't have lost the war in the first place.
By resist I mean threaten mutiny. Throw stones at him, that kind of thing. Basically, demand they get land.

He undoubtedly had less trouble. As mentioned in both Hygenius and Cassius Dio, towns which had favoured Antony were cleared of inhabitants and repopulated with military colonists.
I know he had less trouble-the point is, he would have had far more trouble were we to take that all the legions were at or near their paper strength of 5,200 men. Basically, what I'm saying is if Augustus had to deal with the demobilization of 182,000 men, he would have had far more problems than OTL.

It's also telling that he did a lot of his compression into 27 legions by merging legions together-suggesting they weren't close to full strength.
 
By resist I mean threaten mutiny. Throw stones at him, that kind of thing. Basically, demand they get land.
Again, the Antonian legions? Having fought and lost a battle, the defeated and disarmed side is going to throw stones at the enemy commander when he announces he intends to spare their lives, on the grounds they're not being given a reward for fighting against him? How many times do you think Augustus might have suffered himself to be hit before he ordered his own legions to wade in with swords swinging?

he did a lot of his compression into 27 legions by merging legions together-suggesting they weren't close to full strength.
Alternatively, suggesting that he allowed the legionaries who didn't want to serve any further to take their discharge and merged the remaining skeleton units to bring them up to full strength. But I'm not sure you can even argue that this was a widespread practice based on the evidence. Only three legions are subtitled Gemina, and in one of those cases it's because loyal troops were drafted into a formerly Antonian legion.

what I'm saying is if Augustus had to deal with the demobilization of 182,000 men, he would have had far more problems than OTL.
But viewing numbers as the only variable is a horrendously myopic way of looking at the question. Firstly, the triumviral settlements of 42BC which you refer to were exclusively in Italy, whereas Augustus's settlements of 36BC and 30BC were in both Italy and Africa. Secondly, at the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, Octavian is not in complete control of the state: Augustus is. Augustus can dispossess whoever he wants; he can raid the treasury to buy land or pay off legionaries; and if either the legionaries or the locals aren't happy, they haven't got anybody to turn to because all the potential leaders of a resistance movement (like Lucius Antonius) are either dead or keeping their heads down to avoid annoying the single undisputed ruler of the Roman state.
 
Again, the Antonian legions? Having fought and lost a battle, the defeated and disarmed side is going to throw stones at the enemy commander when he announces he intends to spare their lives, on the grounds they're not being given a reward for fighting against him? How many times do you think Augustus might have suffered himself to be hit before he ordered his own legions to wade in with swords swinging?
This never had to happen because Augustus was smart enough to offer them land or a continued commission in the army, rather than saying, "Okay guys, anyone who doesn't wanna keep fighting (and btw, you all can't keep fighting, I can't afford all of you), good luck on your own without property." If for nothing else, that's a bad idea because it will create a military hardened and dispossessed class that has beef with Augustus-just the kind of people willing to cause unrest.

Also, what makes you think Antony's army would be easily defeated? Antony's army was never defeated, and indeed it was still a formidable force when Canidius was leading them on their way back. They surrendered because Antonius had abandoned them, not because they didn't think they could beat Augustus. And they almost certainly surrendered only after negotiating a deal with Augustus, a deal that almost certainly would have included promises of land grants for those who are disbanded. Otherwise they would have continued under Canidius and Octavian would still have quite the problem on his hands.

Alternatively, suggesting that he allowed the legionaries who didn't want to serve any further to take their discharge and merged the remaining skeleton units to bring them up to full strength. But I'm not sure you can even argue that this was a widespread practice based on the evidence. Only three legions are subtitled Gemina, and in one of those cases it's because loyal troops were drafted into a formerly Antonian legion.
Not all legions merged were given the title Gemina. For example, the Legio V Alaudae, raised by Caesar and fighting with Antony up until Actium, were merged with other units into Augustus' army. Yet they retained the name "Legio V Alaudae" rather than "Gemina".


But viewing numbers as the only variable is a horrendously myopic way of looking at the question. Firstly, the triumviral settlements of 42BC which you refer to were exclusively in Italy, whereas Augustus's settlements of 36BC and 30BC were in both Italy and Africa. Secondly, at the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, Octavian is not in complete control of the state: Augustus is. Augustus can dispossess whoever he wants; he can raid the treasury to buy land or pay off legionaries; and if either the legionaries or the locals aren't happy, they haven't got anybody to turn to because all the potential leaders of a resistance movement (like Lucius Antonius) are either dead or keeping their heads down to avoid annoying the single undisputed ruler of the Roman state.

I'm not sure anyone in Italy was too inclined to do anything but keep their heads down in 42 BC too. This is right after the proscriptions remember, and Octavian does have dictatorial powers and a large army still. Also, I think you are using hindsight too much-AUgustus in 30 BCE was not the same Augustus in 23 BC, when I feel like his power really became entrenched. There was still very much the possibility that he could get murdered and of unrest, which declined sharply in subsequent years as people accepted the new order.

But let's take this from a different perspective. By 42 BC, the Roman army had just undergone a civil war that lasted from 49-44, and then another civil war starting in 43. That took a heavy tole on the legions, which itself was enough to probably knock them down from full strength. Second, the Romans frequently raised whole new legions before they actually filled the numbers for them. They might raise a new legion (for ex. lets call it Legio VI). Legio VI however only has around 1,000 soldiers when its formed, progressively getting more recruits. So while on paper it looks like Caesar and Antony and Octavian were levying these new full strength legions left and right, what is more likely happening is you have a large amount of under-strength legions.

I'm not saying the Romans didn't have the manpower for these numbers, just that logistically and economically speaking, it doesn't seem feasible that they actually raised all these troops in one location at one time.
 
MrGreyOwl,
Running away doesn't work because then you can't defend anything important, like loot or cities or civilians, and may still find yourself pressed into Alesias.

I know rewriting is annoyng, but most times it happens.
 
Antony's army was never defeated, and indeed it was still a formidable force when Canidius was leading them on their way back. They surrendered because Antonius had abandoned them, not because they didn't think they could beat Augustus.
I'd say that their refusal to follow Canidius's orders to retreat to Macedonia and continue to fight, forcing him to abandon the army and flee to Alexandria, shows that they were neither formidable nor under any illusion about whether they had lost. Unless, that is, you're prepared to argue the same in the case of Lepidus and his troops. As it happens, we have evidence that some Antonian legionaries received grants of land: however, both common sense and the fact that large numbers receive nothing or are settled in Africa confirms that they were in no position to drive a hard bargain by threat of insurrection in the way that you imply.

Not all legions merged were given the title Gemina. For example, the Legio V Alaudae, raised by Caesar and fighting with Antony up until Actium, were merged with other units into Augustus' army. Yet they retained the name "Legio V Alaudae" rather than "Gemina".
This is another example of an Antonian legion having loyal troops transferred into it, though. What neither this legion nor X Gemina prove is that he did a lot of his compression into 27 legions by merging legions together because they weren't close to full strength. In fact, from the very fact that there are two Augustan legions which earn the subtitle Gemina from being merged, we can actually surmise that it was a rare occurrence for loyal legions- otherwise it wouldn't have been notable enough in those two cases for the subtitle to be earned.

I'm not sure anyone in Italy was too inclined to do anything but keep their heads down in 42 BC too. This is right after the proscriptions remember, and Octavian does have dictatorial powers and a large army still.
Again, at the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, the thing about a triumvirate is that there are three of them, and the thing about a princeps is that there's one of him. The dissidents in Italy might have been inclined to keep their heads down had it not been for the fact that the brother of a man just as powerful as Octavian is there to lead them. If you're a displaced landowner, or a veteran unhappy with your allotment, who exactly could you turn to in 30BC who isn't inextricably linked to the Augustan regime? Every public man of status left alive after the civil war either sided with him already, or is living on borrowed time after having been pardoned.

By 42 BC, the Roman army had just undergone a civil war that lasted from 49-44, and then another civil war starting in 43. That took a heavy tole on the legions, which itself was enough to probably knock them down from full strength.
Actually, what's more likely is that the number of campaigns between 50BC and 30BC result in there being a large number of veterans, or troops with at least some training, who are ready to come back to the colours. For instance, Octavian could call on the veterans of the 28 legions which were discharged after Phillipi to fill his ranks to fight Antony. This gradual process of increasingly militarising the population of Italy would explain how Caesar starts off with twelve legions and Augustus ends up with sixty to seventy.

while on paper it looks like Caesar and Antony and Octavian were levying these new full strength legions left and right, what is more likely happening is you have a large amount of under-strength legions.
However, the only reason that they would create legions is if they had the expectation of being able to bring them up to full strength in a sufficiently short length of time to use them in combat. It's not like the British in the Napoleonic wars, where the sale of commissions makes raising a new regiment more profitable than adding a new battalion to an existing regiment, and where regional designations like the 105th (Borough of Leeds) or the 129th (Gentlemen of Coventry) make these units more attractive to recruits. It doesn't really matter how full the new legions were (though, as I've argued below, the evidence is in favour of them either being full or much closer to being so that you've implied). What matters is that Caesar, Antony and Octavian looked at their financial resources and the manpower available and concluded that these new legions could be created quickly enough to help turn the course of the wars in which they were engaged. And those decisions provide us with very strong evidence for the ability of Rome to mobilise in the event of a threatened Gallic invasion.

I'm not saying the Romans didn't have the manpower for these numbers, just that logistically and economically speaking, it doesn't seem feasible that they actually raised all these troops in one location at one time.
But you can't just say "I don't think this seems feasible" and leave it at that: you have to look for evidence that supports or contradicts your supposition. For instance, you say that
if Augustus had to deal with the demobilization of 182,000 men he would have had far more problems than OTL.
Yet we know from the Res Gestae that when consul the fifth time [29BC] I gave from my war-spoils to colonies of my soldiers each HS 1000 per man; about 120,000 men in the colonies received this triumphal public gift. It's clear that 180,000 is already in the correct ballpark: when you factor in that Augustus is talking specifically about his soldiers (colonis militum meorum) suggesting that Antony's may have been excluded from the gift, and that some soldiers will have been given cash rather than land or sold their plots, the figure starts to look quite reasonable.
 
Last edited:

takerma

Banned
Not at first. Ventidius Bassus was the first to actually overhaul how the Roman armies in the east were equipped and fought in the east. Basically, he strengthened the shield that was so easily penetrated by Parthian arrows before, he strengthened the armor, and he drastically increased the number of slingers, archers and other light infantry in the army.

http://www.historynet.com/mark-antonys-persian-campaign.htm

I actually tried to find a source for the roman shields being penetrated by parthian arrows. It might be possible for arrowhead to get deep enough to hurt the arm holding the shield but even that is a bit unlikely. Shields tend to stop arrows very well, Parthians would need some crazy draw weight bows to be able to pierce shields that worked fine everywhere else. Then imagine shooting that kind of beast of a bow from horse back for hours on end, does not seem likely. To me it always sounded like an isolated anecdote that became a general statement.

Getting a lot of slingers was a brilliant solution to the problem though. Bullets can not be seen or dodged, have massive range and slaughter unarmored horses and unarmored cavalry very easily. Being an unarmored horse archer vs force with a thousand of those would be really not fun.
 
I actually tried to find a source for the roman shields being penetrated by parthian arrows. It might be possible for arrowhead to get deep enough to hurt the arm holding the shield but even that is a bit unlikely. Shields tend to stop arrows very well, Parthians would need some crazy draw weight bows to be able to pierce shields that worked fine everywhere else. Then imagine shooting that kind of beast of a bow from horse back for hours on end, does not seem likely. To me it always sounded like an isolated anecdote that became a general statement.

Getting a lot of slingers was a brilliant solution to the problem though. Bullets can not be seen or dodged, have massive range and slaughter unarmored horses and unarmored cavalry very easily. Being an unarmored horse archer vs force with a thousand of those would be really not fun.

Well, I believe there are mentionings in Plutarch about the arrows piercing the shield. I'd have to check that though. Apparently Adrian Goldsworthy, in "The Roman Army At War" also mentioned that Parthian arrows were partially able to penetrate Roman shields. It would make sense, for otherwise the Parthian strategy of just rain arrows down on the Romans at Carrhae wouldn't have been very effective against the Roman square.

Also, robcrauford, I concede.
 
Top