Mig 15 / Mig 17 upgrade

[La Rouge Beret]

During the late 1950's Canada and Australia constructed a refined Sabre for their respective air forces. Both versions were considered the ultimate derivative of the Sabre. Is there any possibility for this to occur behind the Iron Curtin, i.e. the Czech or Poles refine the Mig 15 / 17? Additionally if this was done, what should be modified on both airframes?

 

[KyleB]

I would suggest finding a way to replace the heavy cannon with multiple, smaller guns (Korean War experience showed the MiGs' armament to be inadequate for dogfights, being designed for bomber interception). I'd like to see models with the 37mm piece replaced by a trio of 12.7mm or 14.5mm guns. This picture shows the armament layout of the MiG-15:

Though of course, maybe the Czechs and Poles would want heavy interception capability.

Airframe modifications might solve the spin problem sometimes faced by MiG-15 pilots in the Korean War, and that might have been present in the Mig-17 because the design of the latter was started before the Korean War.

Specialized, two-seater ground-attack aircraft are another possibility, perhaps converted from trainer versions.

It should be worth noting that the Mig-15 and Mig-17 were more different than they appeared; the Mig-17 was a basically all-new design despite the similar layout.

 

[Cook]

I would suggest finding a way to replace the heavy cannon with multiple, smaller guns...

The Commonwealth upgrade to the F-86 Sabre did the exact opposite, replacing 6 x .50 Cal machine guns with 2 x 30mm ADEN cannon. It was found that smaller calibre guns just didn’t carry an effective punch, even in multiples, cannons were more effective.

 

[Just Leo]

Many up-grades were done.The MiG-15 was up-graded to the MiG-17. The 37 mm cannon was commonly deleted/replaced with additional NR-23. All-weather variants with primitive, unreliable radar, and the old crappy AA missiles were developed. A solid nose with lateral intakes was built, similar to that done on the Sabre and F-84, and others. This allowed a greater flexibility in weapons and equipment fit. Better engines, and after-burning engines were installed. Improved gunsights and avionics were a natural. Although performance was improved, the breed was subsonic, and performance improvements didn't change that. Anything that was supersonic is unlikely to bear a similarity.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

The 37 mm cannon was commonly deleted/replaced with additional NR-23. All-weather variants with primitive, unreliable radar, and the old crappy AA missiles were developed. Better engines, and after-burning engines were installed. Improved gunsights and avionics were a natural. Although performance was improved, the breed was subsonic, and performance improvements didn't change that. .

I have certainly read about these, my question is it possible to have these modifications done by an Eastern Bloc country that implements reasonable Quality Control standards? Additionally what would be the chance of implementing western radios, etc - similar to what has been done with the Chinese export market?

 

[Jonathan Kan]

Many up-grades were done.The MiG-15 was up-graded to the MiG-17. The 37 mm cannon was commonly deleted/replaced with additional NR-23. All-weather variants with primitive, unreliable radar, and the old crappy AA missiles were developed. A solid nose with lateral intakes was built, similar to that done on the Sabre and F-84, and others. This allowed a greater flexibility in weapons and equipment fit. Better engines, and after-burning engines were installed. Improved gunsights and avionics were a natural. Although performance was improved, the breed was subsonic, and performance improvements didn't change that. Anything that was supersonic is unlikely to bear a similarity.

How about refitted the armament with two 30 mm NR-30 cannons and two K-13 AAMs?

 

[Chris S]

I have certainly read about these, my question is it possible to have these modifications done by an Eastern Bloc country that implements reasonable Quality Control standards? Additionally what would be the chance of implementing western radios, etc - similar to what has been done with the Chinese export market?

Given that the USSR as a rule tended to export lower quality versions to the Eastern European states and third party customers I doubt you could get this without some changes in the Soviet leadership and removing a lot of the paranoia.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Given that the USSR as a rule tended to export lower quality versions to the Eastern European states and third party customers I doubt you could get this without some changes in the Soviet leadership and removing a lot of the paranoia.

Yes I was thinking about how to achieve that, possibly a more inclusive Soviet Union within the Warsaw Pact that encourages domestic industry within their satelite states. Part of this has been motivated by the book called Red Planet...

 

[Just Leo]

A kinder, softer, more nurturing Soviet Union.

 

[Chris S]

A kinder, softer, more nurturing Soviet Union.

More of this:

and less of this:

 

[Cook]

A rare photograph unearthed in Kremlin archives following the fall of the Soviet Union in 1989 of Premier Khrushchev unveiling the Soviet Teddy Bear Atomic Bomb to a secret session of the inner Politburo sometime in 1964.

 

[tallwingedgoat]

The MiG-17 was the ultimate development of the MiG-15. There was not a whole lot wrong with it that was correctable. It couldn't match later fighters in the vertical or at high speeds. To address this you'll need a whole new airplane.

The only area that could be improved would be the guns. Give it two 30mm NR-30s instead of the 23/37mm combo. Assuming the aircraft would handle it, this would make it a better fighter, at the cost of bomber destroying missions which it couldn't do anyways by the 60's.

 

[aktarian]

Except this

More of this:

leads to

 

[tallwingedgoat]

This will give you an idea about the advantages and limitations of the Fresco.

http://area51specialprojects.com/migs_area51.html

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Cheers for the insights gents, could the Mig 17 handle the NR 30 and would it be able to accommodate the weapons in the nose or wings?

P.S. Love Khruschev with the teddy bear.

 

[Catmo]

We should remember that the MIG-15 was an interceptor, not a fighter. A pure B-29 killer to defend the Soviet homeland. It was perfect for that role. High rate of climb and the cannons could fire at B-29's that couldn't fire back.

Turned out the MIG-15 was pretty good at slashing down form above against most American planes in Korea. The F-86 did well against the 15 because it had enough ability at mid altitude to avoid the slash and win in a dogfight.

 

[Matt Wiser]

Remember that the MiG-17 was also meant as a bomber interceptor: Only in the late '50s and early '60s were its dogfighting abilities put to their full potential-especially over NVN. The better Arab pilots in 1967 (Egyptian, Iraqi, and Syrian) preferred it over the MiG-21. Jordanians preferred Hunters, btw-and their guys were trained by the RAF, as were some Iraqis-who flew Hunters into the early '80s and the Iran-Iraq War. Keep in mind that following Korea, the next war was expected to be nuclear, and interceptors to stop bombers were top priority, not tactical fighters meant to dogfight and do air-to-mud stuff with conventional weapons. And when you did build tactical fighters, they were all designed to carry tac nukes.

 

[Mefisto]

Yes I was thinking about how to achieve that, possibly a more inclusive Soviet Union within the Warsaw Pact that encourages domestic industry within their satelite states.

I'm afraid it's impossible. The Soviets didn't allow to develop an independend armament industry in satellite countries.
An example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_TS-16_Grot
Poland had to be satisfied with MiGs and Su's.

 

[Chris S]

Except this



leads to

Nonsense! Obviously the live bears lead to the stuffed bear. Khrushchev himself...uhh..."retired" the ursine cavalry

 

[AdA]

MiG upgrades

The MiG 17 was a new aircraft, with a diferent wing with more sweep, and much better handling then the MiG15. The USSR felt there was no need to further improve it with as a dogfighter because they were mass producing the MiG19S from 1955 and that fighter was the undisputed king of the 1950 dogfighters. It had a 1/1 power to weight ratio that was amazing for the time, was manouvrable as the best, and had 3x30mm NR guns that fired heavier shell at a faster rate than the Aden 30mm.

There was an effort to turn the MiG17 into a ground attack aircraft, as the MiG17AS, with two extra pylons, and it made for an excelent CAS aircraft, apart from a limited payload. The heavy guns were very usefull for straffing, and the mix of 37mm and 23mm gave a pilot more options in that role.
In Poland a dedicated MiG17 based attack aircraft was developed, and that was called the Lim6, but it wasn't built in large numbers. Tehre were too many MiG17F around to justify building more.

It should be noted that the Chinese kept upgrading and building the MiG19 (as the J6) into the 80s, but never went far with any MiG17 (J5) upgrades apart from turning it into a mass produced trainer (JJ5).