Midway Island Siege?

Round trip to Midway from Kauai is about 2,400 miles, so unless the plan is to land about 600 miles short of the runway, then the bomb load has to lighten up.

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/tag/wright-cyclone-r-1820-97/

With a normal fuel load of 2,520 gallons (9,540 liters) the B-17F had a maximum range of 2,880 miles (4,635 kilometers). Carrying a 6,000 pound (2,722 kilogram) bomb load, the range was 1,300 miles (2,092 kilometers).

2520 (US) gallons is 15,687 lbs for 2880 miles. That 5.5 pounds of fuel per mile. A 6,000lbs bomb load drops the fuel carried to 9876lbs, which at 5.5 lbs per mile is good for 1,800 miles. To get 2400 miles would be a 2,676lbs bomb load, which is basically turning a heavy bomber into a medium bomber.



G4M Bettys with 1,800lbs bomb loads couldn't kick the US off Guadalcanal, so why would B-17's with 3,000lbs bomb loads succeed at Midway?

I wouldn't think Nimitz is going to let them keep the island so a submarine refuelling base in 1943 is probably beside the point. But, if the 1st USMC division is storming Midway in August, it didn't take Guadalcanal in August.

How many troops would you really? Midway is at the tail end of the Japanese supply lines what days sail from Pearl take a Marine Rgt get them some Amtracs and have them storm the Island under cover from the Battleships and Heavy cruisers why would you need a full division to cover an area of what 1200 square acres defended by how many men who are probably on the receiving end of a naval bombardment and aerial bomb loads for weeks. I don't think you will need the First MD
 
It makes me wonder if you could somehow write a POD where the entire top echelon gets killed in a gas leak or something along those lines in early 1939. Or better yet, by a malfunctioning Mk. 14 torpedo.
:cool:

I think part of the problem was Navy tradition (or practise, whatever you want to call it) of not criticizing Bureau officers (be it BuOrd, BuAer, BuC&R, whatever), so Nimitz, English, Lockwood, & others (including King?) would accept BuOrd was doing its best to deal.

Part of the problem with the Mark 6/Mark 14 (& really, the Mark 6 was the big problem; fixing the Mark 14 was comparatively simple) was design & production in the '30s, when money was tight, so testing was skimped on; add the criminally low production from NTS, so every test shot amounted to a third of a day's production...:eek: There are the occasional apparently insane decisions: CNO Pratt's offer of Ericsson (about to be scrapped) as a live fire target--provided BuOrd was willing to raise her afterward...:confused::confused:

All that being true, if you're going to kill the responsible parties in a gas leak, you might need it to be a main that might take out half of DC.:eek:
 
Anyways, I got my original answer. Even if the Miracle of Midway is reversed, the Japanese assault would be like trying to put rocks in a blender... made worse that their recon managed to miss stuff with only 1,200 acres of land to search

Your scenario depends on the notion that IJN BBs would not be used for shore bombardment. With Yamamoto in command, he could override the BBs' captains and he is probably pragmatic enough to do so.
 
Interpolating, for a radius of 1,200 miles (1043 nm) that comes out at 6280 lbs. Assume 6000 lbs and some extra fuel (6,000 lbs of bombs, combat radius 1147 nm or 1319 miles) and there you go.

I know it's the G not the F, but it suggests that 6000 lbs is in the ballpark for a radius of 1,200 statute miles.

This motivated me to break out my copy of A Glorious Page in Our History. (Anyone that doesn't have it should get it).

B-17E's at Midway were loaded with 4 x 600lbs bombs for long range missions (700nm distant from Midway) and 8 x 500lbs bombs for short range missions, (300nm from Midway). They were fitted with belly fuel tanks for longer legs, (one being lost probably because of it).
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Your scenario depends on the notion that IJN BBs would not be used for shore bombardment. With Yamamoto in command, he could override the BBs' captains and he is probably pragmatic enough to do so.
I'm not sure they had much HE along, and their invasion plans didn't include a bombardment by the BBs. If they fail with the first (and only) wave, a prep bombardment is a bit late...
 
TTL involved the carriers sunk by surface fire so... that's even less ammo. Anyways, we know the Japanese will not resort to battleships for shore bombardment until 2 months, and in TTL, they have 7 days so...
 
How many troops would you really? Midway is at the tail end of the Japanese supply lines what days sail from Pearl take a Marine Rgt get them some Amtracs and have them storm the Island under cover from the Battleships and Heavy cruisers why would you need a full division to cover an area of what 1200 square acres defended by how many men who are probably on the receiving end of a naval bombardment and aerial bomb loads for weeks. I don't think you will need the First MD

Midway with 3,000 troops is a Tarawa level problem, so anything less than a full division would be pretty risky.
 
Midway with 3,000 troops is a Tarawa level problem, so anything less than a full division would be pretty risky.

I don't think they have 3000 troops on Midway nor do I think they'll be able to construct the fortifications there it's gonna be bombed and bombarded almost daily considering its distance to Pearl give it enough time neutralize it and then send in a Marine Rgt with Amtracs if you really want to take it. Why not just bomb out the airfield disable and earth moving equipment and wait for it to wither on the vine. Plus they are almost certainly not gonna take Midway with the forces involved so the point is moot anyway IJN Doctrine says using the BBs for shore bombardment is ''beneath them'' or some such
 
Midway with 3,000 troops is a Tarawa level problem, so anything less than a full division would be pretty risky.

Yeah, but we figured out nothing other than battleships can break the American preparations anyways. Since the Japanese are outnumbered and did bad recon, they can't take the island and get to that point anyways.
 
I don't think they have 3000 troops on Midway nor do I think they'll be able to construct the fortifications there it's gonna be bombed and bombarded almost daily considering its distance to Pearl give it enough time neutralize it and then send in a Marine Rgt with Amtracs if you really want to take it.

IMO, a single marine regiment is too light an invasion of a Midway scale target. You're suggesting the exact same doctrinal error as what the Japanese did in the first place, (their historical Midway invasion force would have been defeated because it was too small for the job). "Daily" bombardment isn't going to accomplish much. 1st Marine Division is passing into the Pacific during the summer of 1942. Nimitz's top responsibility was the defense of Hawaii. If Midway was in Japanese hands I think there's a strong chance Midway becomes the 1st USMC's first assignment, maybe in August.
 
IMO, a single marine regiment is too light an invasion of a Midway scale target. You're suggesting the exact same doctrinal error as what the Japanese did in the first place, (their historical Midway invasion force would have been defeated because it was too small for the job). "Daily" bombardment isn't going to accomplish much. 1st Marine Division is passing into the Pacific during the summer of 1942. Nimitz's top responsibility was the defense of Hawaii. If Midway was in Japanese hands I think there's a strong chance Midway becomes the 1st USMC's first assignment, maybe in August.

I see your point though since Japan was never going to take it the 1st USMC is probably heading somewhere other than Midway Samoa?
 
If Midway is in US hands but Nimitz lost 3 carriers in the battle I don't know what he'd do with the 1st USMC division. Watchtower I would doubt as without carrier superiority it would be a potential disaster. Samoa? Maybe, but he might hold it at Hawaii too. Dunno.
 
If Midway is in US hands but Nimitz lost 3 carriers in the battle I don't know what he'd do with the 1st USMC division. Watchtower I would doubt as without carrier superiority it would be a potential disaster. Samoa? Maybe, but he might hold it at Hawaii too. Dunno.
Having lost 3 CVs, he might redirect the MC Raiders from Makin to, frex, Tulagi to pre-empt a Japanese move. If he did it at the right time, it could butterfly Watchtower entirely. If that would shift Japan's emphasis to Fiji-Samoa, IDK.
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Monthly Donor
Your scenario depends on the notion that IJN BBs would not be used for shore bombardment. With Yamamoto in command, he could override the BBs' captains and he is probably pragmatic enough to do so.
Actually, if anything Yamamoto would be far LESS likely to order such a bombardment.It was an article of faith in the IJN that ships DO NOT fight islands (e.g. fleets do not fight fortresses).

See Shattered Sword, page 344 (hardcover) for direct quotes from Yamamoto when exactly this was proposed to him on June 5.
 
... 1st Marine Division is passing into the Pacific during the summer of 1942. ...

If Midway is in US hands but Nimitz lost 3 carriers in the battle I don't know what he'd do with the 1st USMC division. Watchtower I would doubt as without carrier superiority it would be a potential disaster. Samoa? Maybe, but he might hold it at Hawaii too. Dunno.

1st Marine Division was mostly in the S Pacific by 6 June 1942. It was started in that direction in April 1942, with components scattered from the US to the S Pac April-August. 1st Raider battalion was on New Caledonia, 5th Regiment at Wellington, & 7th Regiment in British Samoa. Those had artillery battalions from the 11th Regiment attached & other attachments from support units, including parts of the 1 Marine Air Wing assemblying in S Pac. 1st Regiment were enroute late May, the balance of the 11th Marines arrive piecemeal June - August.

If you want a Marine Division the 2d was scattered along the US west coast & easier to assemble for a amphib op. & as I pointed out before there were two Army Divisions in Hawaii, which could be prepped for attacking Midway Island with less demand on cargo shipping, less transit time & therefore more time to prepare.
 
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