Midget submarines

[La Rouge Beret]

I have been reading about the Japanese, RN, Regia Marina and North Korean operations with midget submarines. My question is if a revolutionary group is confined to an island and want to secede from their archipelagic country, what would be more effective midget submarine, FAC, or underwater chariot?

Their opposition would be confined to patrol boats, LCH's and possibly a corvette class vessel. Now in regards to training and logistical support how feasible is this and if this group utilised a midget submarine, who would be the best source?

 

[Jukra]

I have been reading about the Japanese, RN, Regia Marina and North Korean operations with midget submarines. My question is if a revolutionary group is confined to an island and want to secede from their archipelagic country, what would be more effective midget submarine, FAC, or underwater chariot?

Their opposition would be confined to patrol boats, LCH's and possibly a corvette class vessel. Now in regards to training and logistical support how feasible is this and if this group utilised a midget submarine, who would be the best source?

Midget submarines, FAC's, underwater chariots, commando swimmers etc. work at best by being teamed with other combat elements. But if a choice has to be made, then it's FAC's, since as surface vessel they can be used in sea control as well as sea denial duties.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

A FAC has the added ability of being able to conduct sea control operations, however the scenario in my mind involves a state that has low literacy rates and a lower exposure to seamanship. So if a FAC is used it would require mercs to be used effectively.

At this stage I am leaning towards chariot / midget sub as with a crew of 2 - 4 this may be more cost efficient in regards to mercs. Another consideration is that there may be a medium sized power intervening and without any friendly air cover, the FAC(s) will be float sam within an hour.

My next question would be how much support / maintenance does a midget sub require for its effectiveness vs a chariot? Plus how long would it take to become worked up in the use of a sub or chariot? Think for the chariot: maisale sub: Type A (japanese) or DPRK Yugo?

 

[Don Lardo]

A FAC has the added ability of being able to conduct sea control operations, however the scenario in my mind involves a state that has low literacy rates and a lower exposure to seamanship. So if a FAC is used it would require mercs to be used effectively.

They're too stupid and/or unskilled to use a boat, but they can still somehow operate a submarine?

I think you need to re-examine the premise here. Just because it's a mini-sub or chariot it doesn't mean it's somehow easier to use. Quite the opposite actually.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

DL,

A chariot or a midget sub 2 - 4 people with reasonable standards of fitness and high school. I was not clear on this in the original post and was thinking about them finding a Type A IJN submarine left on their island and hiring some mercs to use them.

The issue with the FAC and with the sub that I am trying to deliberate is the logistical chain required for them to work. What other people will be required to make my fantasy work?

 

[Don Lardo]

A chariot or a midget sub 2 - 4 people with reasonable standards of fitness and high school.

And who've been through dive school, can read/use dive tables, can perform underwater navigation, and have the tanks, regulators, meters, and all the other equipment necessary needed for long term SCUBA diving plus maintaining, repairing, and charging/fueling the chariot's motors.

Mere child's play, right?

... was thinking about them finding a Type A IJN submarine left on their island and hiring some mercs to use them.

Because a Type A sub abandoned during WW2 is going to be factory fresh after decades underwater, hidden in a jungle, buried in a bunker, or wherever it's been all that time.

And if it isn't, repairing and making such a sub operational is simply more child's play, right?

What other people will be required to make my fantasy work?

Look at it this way. The Tamil Tigers operating a navy and even managed to bomb Columbo with an aircraft or aircraft, but they never used a sub or "frogmen".

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Don,

Please read my response closely, I am going to utilise mercs for this role as they have the knowledge that my freedom fighters do not possess. The Type A submarine will not be factory fresh, but there are liberties that I can take into consideration when writing - an author's perogative.

To help you with your perspective my idea is going to occur on Bougainville or Rabaul, I am not sure yet. Both of these islands have poor literacy rates, hence the requirement for the Mercs to be able to operate any seagoing vessels.

However the PNGDF regularly sends soldiers, sailors to Australia for training so it is plausible that I can utilise a disenchanted member of a dive team that has had the proper training. I welcome your critiques however please remain civil.

 

[tallwingedgoat]

Look at it this way. The Tamil Tigers operating a navy and even managed to bomb Columbo with an aircraft or aircraft, but they never used a sub or "frogmen".

Actually they did. Sri Lankan army found Tamil Tiger submarine factory in the jungle with torpedo firing capability. The Sea Tigers also used frogman piloted torpedos.

http://www.armybase.us/2009/07/sri-lanka-navy-find-tamil-tiger-submarine/

 

[HMS Warspite]

Midget submarines had been used in the past for other purposes as well, such as smuggling of whatever sorts of illegal issues. Recently a Collombian Drug Cartel had been discovered having a small midget transport submarine in the Jungle of the borderregion with Venezuela, if I am correct.

 

[Don Lardo]

Actually they did.

Actually they didn't.

The Sri Lankan military found a "submersible-type vehicle". In other words they found a latter day "kaiten".

All that is plainly explained in the link you provided. The pictures even show the windowed cockpit from which the "kaiten" would be steered.

As for Tamil frogmen, they didn't accomplish anything so they might as well have not existed. Remember, pretension does not equal capability.

Midget submarines had been used in the past for other purposes as well, such as smuggling of whatever sorts of illegal issues. Recently a Collombian Drug Cartel had been discovered having a small midget transport submarine in the Jungle of the borderregion with Venezuela, if I am correct.

As usual you are more incorrect than correct.

The smuggling "submarines" used by drug cartels have much more in common with the submarine rams of the 1890s like HMS Polyphemus or USS Kahtahdin than any vessels recognized as submarines.

Like the ironclad-era rams, the smuggling vessels are surface craft whose primary hulls are permanently trimmed to a point below the water while their superstructures remain above the water line. The smuggling craft have been built with smaller and smaller superstructures to lessen their radar returns and the chances of being visually spotted. Lately the superstructures have been little more than large snorkel masts.

Unlike submarines, these submerged vessels do not routinely adjust their trim. That is they do not adjust the depth at which their primary hull travels, it is always a fixed distance below the waves and the vessel is effected by those waves too.

 

[Mark-ITSOT]

Did someone say "midget submarines"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGlIki2vq5w

 

[Don Lardo]

Please read my response closely...

Read my explanations equally carefully.

The skills are rare, the assets even rarer, and the utility of both in a rebellion are minimal at best. Limpet mines placed by divers can work in some cases. Torpedoes, on the other hand, grow progressively more useless as a target's draft decreases and guess what sort of draft FACs and the like have?

How would the PNG rebels spend their limited funds? Mercs with the skills and experience are going to be costly, the gear costlier yet, and the application of both very narrow. On frogmen and submarines they can only use against a very limited number of targets. Or on building/acquiring/arming FACS of their own which they can use in many more different ways?

Again look at the Tamil Tigers. They had an actual surface navy because they could use it in many different roles and they also putzed building a few kaitens and other similar vessels that were never used at all.

The Type A submarine will not be factory fresh, but there are liberties that I can take into consideration when writing - an author's perogative.

This isn't the Writers board, the standards are different. Not better, mind you, just different.

Stretch your perogative to an implausible level and you're going to get called on it.

To help you with your perspective my idea is going to occur on Bougainville or Rabaul, I am not sure yet.

The details behind this idea do not matter. You need to spend the rebel's money wisely because plausible rebels are going to wring every last bang out of their limited bucks that they can.

Again, what will they get more use out of? A few sets of SCUBA gear and a homebuilt "chariot" or RPGs, HMGs, and other ironmongery mounted on a surface vessel?

However the PNGDF regularly sends soldiers, sailors to Australia for training so it is plausible...

I thought mercs were going to do it all? No matter let's talk plausibility because this idea desperately needs some.

First, what is the number of the PNGDF members receiving military training in Australia and what is the number of PNGDF members receiving military dive training in Australia? What do you think the ratio between those two numbers would be? 100 to 1? 1000 to 1?

Second, what are the chances that the very limited number of PNGDF members receiving military dive training are also rebels?

Beginning to see the problem?

Let's say there are 100 rebels and two - an absurdly high number - are divers. When the time comes to spend money on equipment, will the rebels choose kit which can all 100 can use or kit which only the 2 divers can use?

I welcome your critiques however please remain civil.

This idea is a non-starter. It makes no sense from a money standpoint, a demographics standpoint, and a military standpoint. This idea looks great at first blush but fails under even cursory examination.

Again, look at the OTL. The Tamil had decades of time and millions to spend to develop this capability, yet they didn't. Why should people of Bougainville or Rabaul do any better?

 

[corditeman]

So you want to sink some ships?

Making limpet mines would be possible, also getting sport-type SCUBA gear. The next thing would be a sport-diving battery-powered 'tug' to pull the diver along faster than fins, or even carry the limpet mines. Subs, no.

The other trick might be the good old-fashioned seabed mine and wires to a shore-based exploder.

 

[tallwingedgoat]

Actually they didn't.

The Sri Lankan military found a "submersible-type vehicle". In other words they found a latter day "kaiten".

All that is plainly explained in the link you provided. The pictures even show the windowed cockpit from which the "kaiten" would be steered.

As for Tamil frogmen, they didn't accomplish anything so they might as well have not existed. Remember, pretension does not equal capability.

As usual you resort to semantics. It may not be a Los Angeles Class sub, but a submarine it was. And Tamil frogmen existed, whether you think their existance mattered is irrelevant.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Read my explanations equally carefully.

The skills are rare, the assets even rarer, and the utility of both in a rebellion are minimal at best. Limpet mines placed by divers can work in some cases. Torpedoes, on the other hand, grow progressively more useless as a target's draft decreases and guess what sort of draft FACs and the like have?

How would the PNG rebels spend their limited funds? Mercs with the skills and experience are going to be costly, the gear costlier yet, and the application of both very narrow. On frogmen and submarines they can only use against a very limited number of targets. Or on building/acquiring/arming FACS of their own which they can use in many more different ways?

Again look at the Tamil Tigers. They had an actual surface navy because they could use it in many different roles and they also putzed building a few kaitens and other similar vessels that were never used at all.



This isn't the Writers board, the standards are different. Not better, mind you, just different.

Stretch your perogative to an implausible level and you're going to get called on it.



The details behind this idea do not matter. You need to spend the rebel's money wisely because plausible rebels are going to wring every last bang out of their limited bucks that they can.

Again, what will they get more use out of? A few sets of SCUBA gear and a homebuilt "chariot" or RPGs, HMGs, and other ironmongery mounted on a surface vessel?



I thought mercs were going to do it all? No matter let's talk plausibility because this idea desperately needs some.

First, what is the number of the PNGDF members receiving military training in Australia and what is the number of PNGDF members receiving military dive training in Australia? What do you think the ratio between those two numbers would be? 100 to 1? 1000 to 1?

Second, what are the chances that the very limited number of PNGDF members receiving military dive training are also rebels?

Beginning to see the problem?

Let's say there are 100 rebels and two - an absurdly high number - are divers. When the time comes to spend money on equipment, will the rebels choose kit which can all 100 can use or kit which only the 2 divers can use?



This idea is a non-starter. It makes no sense from a money standpoint, a demographics standpoint, and a military standpoint. This idea looks great at first blush but fails under even cursory examination.

Again, look at the OTL. The Tamil had decades of time and millions to spend to develop this capability, yet they didn't. Why should people of Bougainville or Rabaul do any better?

Don,

Clearly you have little or no experience in the Pacific and almost none with the training packages offered by the ADF to the Pacific Islanders to the north. The only way that PNG can threaten secession from Bougainville is from the sea, and the majority of their surface assets are located at Manus Island. If you obtain divers / frogmen placed on a fishing vessel with chariots with limpet mines, you can destroy the majority of their assets quite quickly.

Why should Bougainville do better, they have large amounts of mineral wealth, if they are astute to sign a deal with a mining conglomerate - you have the funds available to facilitate their independence. Thanks for your contribution, please contribute to the forum elsewhere.

 

[Don Lardo]

Clearly you have little or no experience in the Pacific...

Clearly you don't know me.

I've built power plants in Irian, consulted at various heavy industrial sites in Australia, worked in the PI, etc., etc., etc. I've a damn sight more experience with technology, technology transfers, and getting so-called "Third World" people to use technology correctly than you'll ever have.

... and almost none with the training packages offered by the ADF to the Pacific Islanders to the north.

How many PNGDF divers the Aussies have trained?

Corditeman is correct when he points out that sports divers in everyday SCUBA gear using battery-powered sports "tugs" could place mines. However, those divers would have to travel relatively short distances and do so during daylight risking detection for navigation purposes.

Traveling at night to lower the chances of detection and navigating over longer distances so the launch point isn't suspiciously close to the target using anything other than sports equipment is going to require a very specialized skill set. Those skills are rare and hiring those skills will be very pricey.

Bougainville has a great deal of mineral wealth, but what have they spent it on and how much of it has actually stayed on Bougainville?

Another place in the Pacific I've been to is Nauru where nearly a century of phosphate "wealth" has created a society in which 9 out of ten people don't work, 9 out of ten people who do work do so in government "jobs", 9 out of ten people are morbidly obese, and over half the population has diabetes. There mineral "wealth" has created nothing but fat, uneducated, lazy assholes with a half dozen wrecked jet-skis stacked around their trailers. A fine revolutionary cadre they'd make and you won't find much better on Bougainville.

Thanks for your contribution, please contribute to the forum elsewhere.

I'll post where I please and I'll continue to enjoy pointing out the huge plot holes in your foolishness. Write whatever fantasies you want. We rip real authors like Turtledove and Stirling to pieces here often enough so dismembering your amateur stuff will be easy.

 

[Cook]

How many PNGDF divers the Aussies have trained?

None. I just asked my brother, former CDT commander and boss of the submarine escape training centre on Garden Island. If they have any divers, they haven’t been trained by us.

They can hardly afford to operate the Attack class patrol boats we gave them.

By the way, the BRA received technical support from the IRA among others so a non-indigenous element providing the required skill set isn’t outside the realm of possibility.

 

[Don Lardo]

None. I just asked my brother, former CDT commander and boss of the submarine escape training centre on Garden Island. If they have any divers, they haven’t been trained by us.

No trained divers? Whoopsie... Strike One.

They can hardly afford to operate the Attack class patrol boats we gave them.

Can't afford to operate patrol boats they didn't even buy? And despite all that "mineral wealth"? Oopsie... Strike Two.

By the way, the BRA received technical support from the IRA among others so a non-indigenous element providing the required skill set isn’t outside the realm of possibility.

And not quite Strike Three. More like a dropped foul tip.

A terrorist act or small series of attacks dependent on assistance from outside groups following their own agendas are a possibility. Sadly, our expert on the Pacific and the Aussie training of NGDF members Red Beanie is talking about a military, not a terror, campaign so that doesn't quite fit.

Still, I'm certain it will make for a wonderful story...

 

[Cook]

A terrorist act or small series of attacks dependent on assistance from outside groups following their own agendas are a possibility. Sadly, our expert on the Pacific and the Aussie training of NGDF members Red Beanie is talking about a military, not a terror, campaign so that doesn't quite fit.

Actually it does still fit. The IRA technical assistance was in the use of firearms, tactics for ambushes (The IRA did do a fair bit of ambushing, and were unfortunately rather proficient at it) and assaulting check points.

The most well-known collaboration was assisting the BRA to build a ‘tank’ using a front end loader they’d stolen from the abandoned CRA copper mine and a WW2 era Japanese anti-aircraft gun. The mounted the gun on top of the front end loader and added steel plate for protection. The tank was used to attack a PNGDF check point with a great deal of success.

The wars in Bougainville and Solomon Islands have been fuelled in a great part by American and Japanese ordinance left over from the Guadalcanal campaign in WW2. The BRA was also using satellite phones and modern high powered rifles obtained in Queensland. When Sandline and Executive Outcomes took the contract with the PNG government to eliminate the BRA senior command and crush the rebellion they were probably biting off a bit more than they could have chewed, despite the Russian attack helicopters; the BRA had by that time got quite experienced at avoiding the PNGDF Hueys.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

No trained divers? Whoopsie... Strike One.

Cook did not rule out trained divers, just those trained by the ADF. Another option if you broaden your narrow horizon would be to consider the organic waterborne elements within the ADF from the humble ship’s diving team through to CD teams 1 and 4. Including the army, looking at 1 & 2 Cdo regt and the waterborne troop of SASR. Now if we consider the ethnic composition of each formation (Hint: CDT 1 in Sydney is a start), a standard ship’s diving team is about 8 members multiplied by Major Fleet units 16 = 128 divers. Now if we work from an assessment of 5% of this total being Melanesian, we end up with 6 rounding down. So if only a 1/3 are from Bougainville or from the Solomon Islands then we get two.



Why Solomon Islanders – they share ethnic and culturally links with Bougainville, after all Bougainville was originally referred to as the Republic of the North Solomons. This is still ignoring the possibility of renewed assistance from unemployed Fijian soldiers looking at bolstering their pensions. Let us continue... so 2 Cdo regiment looking at a combined size of 400 soldiers with 5% again means 20, so a third would give us 6 soldiers. If only 2-4 of those soldiers / sailors are able to be radicalised, then we still have enough to do considerable damage without looking at the force multiplier of a former SASR or CD member added. This number is ignoring those members who have retired or separated from the ADF (which would make this pool grow larger) and also the NZDF which has roughly 22% of their force comprising Maori and Pacific Islander’s. Sam Kouna one of the original leaders of the BRA was a former ADF member and Francis Ona was a graduate of Portsea. I believe Strike One is ineligible as well.​

Can't afford to operate patrol boats they didn't even buy? And despite all that "mineral wealth"? Oopsie... Strike Two. ..

The PNGDF operates Pacific Class patrol boats and their maintenance is an ongoing issue, so this makes it easier for the BRA. Negates your strike two old boy. In fact that means that the mission critical objective would be the LCH’s and the decision to attack the patrol boats would be up to the mission commander. So if the BRA sinks their amphibious capability and their patrol craft are incapacitated or sunk, then without the sea lift and the close blockade that was effective previously.

Even if 1 /2 patrol boats are able to sail, they are not going to be able to insert and then supply a force large enough to destroy the BRA. Their previous amphibious assaults of OP HIGH SPEED 1 and 2 did not set a high standard and would question their ability to establish or maintain a beachhead, let alone secure the airfield.



An airborne assault becomes the remaining option and that is unlikely with their airlift capability. At this stage, unless a PNG PM wishes to fulfil his Napoleonic dreams then it is game, set and match for the BRA. Pretty good return for a swimmer attack with limpet mines.​

And not quite Strike Three. More like a dropped foul tip.
A terrorist act or small series of attacks dependent on assistance from outside groups following their own agendas are a possibility. Sadly, our expert on the Pacific and the Aussie training of NGDF members Red Beanie is talking about a military, not a terror, campaign so that doesn't quite fit.
Still, I'm certain it will make for a wonderful story...

How does a military campaign not include a series of small attacks? In the event that the PNGDF does return to Bougainville the BRA would be compelled to conduct ambushes and small unit attacks until they have encircled the PNGDF detachment. Ominously the terrain is perfect for this behaviour being moutainous and jungle with an enemy that has a long exposed supply line... sounds like a good mix. Then provided that the PNGDF’s two LCH’s have been destroyed then the remaining force would be reliant on resupply from the air, which can be interdicted by MANPADS. An area in which the IRA could provide sound advice.

After all the BRA did stop OP HIGH SPEED 1 & 2, probably a better revolutionary cadre then most before we add our 4-6 highly trained soldiers / sailors. Irrespective of your personal views below;
​

There mineral "wealth" has created nothing but fat, uneducated, lazy assholes with a half dozen wrecked jet-skis stacked around their trailers. A fine revolutionary cadre they'd make and you won't find much better on Bougainville..

Clearly all that time managing technology transfer and heavy industrial projects has left you jaded. Take a break - double the number of threads you have written to 2, after all I know I would like to read it. Oh and thanks for the vote of confidence and the nickname champion.​