Middle East Front 1942

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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The Italian concepts of the "fourth shore" and "vital space" however, we well known; there's a reason the Senussi had been driven out of Libya and into Egypt.

Likewise, the Italian conquest of Ethiopia was all of six years earlier; any Egyptian who thought the Italians were simply coming for a visit would be deluding themselves. Italian war aims included linking Libya with Italian East Africa; what lies between the two?

It was a unique situation where Il Duce was going to ride in on a white horse if Egypt was taken, but in the end at this point he had been forced to rely on too much German help so the Germans would end up giving Egypt as much or as little political Independence from Italy as they wanted.

The war in the desert was a very unique part of World War 2 that doesn't fit into any clear category, hence I why I believe Hollywood hasn't touched it since 1970. One can imagine the Arab response to various sets of Christian powers trying to get them to wage jihad for them on other Christian powers. :rolleyes:

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How long would that support last when Nazi forces start their standard approach to what they regard as subhuman?

Talking of John Philby, it seems he got the funds to send his son to Cambridge as a result of the post war dealings.....if the UK had taken up the offer that was given to them in if I remember correctly the 30's, where does that leave Kim?

You do know that the German forces in Libya, Tunisia and Egypt already worked with local Arab tribes. Heck, its one of the ways the British teach their youth about how tribes in North Africa and the Middle East function and what life is like for them using Doctor Who traveling around NA with Rommel in their graphic novels. Its actually a helpful way of teaching the region and the people to students.
 
The monarchy and Wafd - under Mustafa Nahhas, of all people - were content enough with the limits of power under the 1936 treaty. The only officers who supported some sort of political change in 1942 were very junior, and - as in Nasser's case - safely tucked away on the Sudan frontier. Sadat and his fellow conspirators appear to have belonged to every revolutionary group across the Egyptian spectrum, including a couple that appear to have been British fronts...

See:
http://countrystudies.us/egypt/29.htm

To try and get a pro-Axis Egyptian insurrection in 1942 is asking for something that all the historical evidence pretty clearly suggests was not possible until a decade later, which is when the 23 July Revolution occurred - and even then, given the history of (for example) the Egyptian relationship with the Soviet Union during the Cold War, makes it pretty clear that the Egyptian officer corps were Egyptians first, and (fill in the blank)-ists later...

Best,

IMO There is no way on Earth Mussolini can annex Egypt without German permission, which I doubt they would give considering how much more beneficial an allied Egypt would be for the Axis. Mussolini simply isn't as strong as he was in 1940.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yep; I'd mentioned al-Misri earlier...

There were a couple high level officers around. An interesting POD could be this guy making it to German lines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aziz_Ali_al-Misri

Based on what you say a conventional insurgence seems unlikely. I still however think a good amount of the Egyptian population would take to the streets in some fashion whether its looting, rioting or whatever. Students, previous members of Young Egyptian Party and Muslim Brotherhood could cause some havoc, even if its limited to blocking traffic.:p

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Egypt_Party_(1933)

Yep; I'd mentioned al-Misri earlier... the thing is, it's pretty hard to organize an insurgency or coup from outside the country.

It's one of those issues that certainly sounds like an interesting "what if" but comes down to the reality the British had assembled and sustained a worldwide empire but doing exactly what they did in Egypt: coopting the local elites with enough of a return that they saw little reason to continue fighting...

Which of course leads to the nationalists kicking out the established elites in 1952, but that's another story.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
What country's army made up the bulk of the Axis forces

It was a unique situation where Il Duce was going to ride in on a white horse if Egypt was taken, but in the end at this point he had been forced to rely on too much German help so the Germans would end up giving Egypt as much or as little political Independence from Italy as they wanted.

You do know that the German forces in Libya, Tunisia and Egypt already worked with local Arab tribes. Heck, its one of the ways the British teach their youth about how tribes in North Africa and the Middle East function and what life is like for them using Doctor Who traveling around NA with Rommel in their graphic novels. Its actually a helpful way of teaching the region and the people to students.

IMO There is no way on Earth Mussolini can annex Egypt without German permission, which I doubt they would give considering how much more beneficial an allied Egypt would be for the Axis. Mussolini simply isn't as strong as he was in 1940.

What country's army made up the bulk of the Axis forces in North Africa, do you think?

Especially the infantry who will end up a) grinding through the British defenses and b) end up policiing whatever is left?

I wonder...

Best,
 

Ian_W

Banned
I'm reading a bit more on the war in Egypt now and it seemed that the Axis specifically ran the line of Egypt for the Egyptians, NOT Italian colonial control. They were specifically stating that they were liberating the country and not seeking to colonize it, rather keep it as an ally under its own control, rather than occupied and governed by the Axis. /QUOTE]

You would need to be completely, totally, amazingly gullible to believe this.
 
I'm reading a bit more on the war in Egypt now and it seemed that the Axis specifically ran the line of Egypt for the Egyptians, NOT Italian colonial control. They were specifically stating that they were liberating the country and not seeking to colonize it, rather keep it as an ally under its own control, rather than occupied and governed by the Axis.

You would need to be completely, totally, amazingly gullible to believe this.


I do not think that Wiking has ever studied the experiences of Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria :D
 

Deleted member 1487

Do you think the average Egyptian was an idiot?

Best,
Do you think the average Egyptian had our hindsight or knowledge of the world outside of Egypt? Most only knew what was going on in their area and were well aware of British abuses, not of Axis ones.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
May want to check the literacy rates in Egypt in the 1940s

Do you think the average Egyptian had our hindsight or knowledge of the world outside of Egypt? Most only knew what was going on in their area and were well aware of British abuses, not of Axis ones.

May want to check the literacy rates in Egypt in the 1940s.

There's a difference between being nationalists and being patsies.

Best,
 
Do you think the average Egyptian had our hindsight or knowledge of the world outside of Egypt? Most only knew what was going on in their area and were well aware of British abuses, not of Axis ones.

They had newspapers you know...
 

Deleted member 1487

They had newspapers you know...

What were those papers telling them? How much did they believe, what did they think and feel? How much did they hate the British in 1942 after the British forced a new government on them after a show of force? Why were major officers in the Egyptian military trying to work with the Axis?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_Sadat#Early_life_and_revolutionary_activities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamal_Abdel_Nasser#Military_career
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Officers_Movement_(Egypt)
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Sadat was in jail, Nasser was in the Sudan, and the Free Officers

What were those papers telling them? How much did they believe, what did they think and feel? How much did they hate the British in 1942 after the British forced a new government on them after a show of force? Why were major officers in the Egyptian military trying to work with the Axis?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_Sadat#Early_life_and_revolutionary_activities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamal_Abdel_Nasser#Military_career
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Officers_Movement_(Egypt)

Sadat was in jail, Nasser was in the Sudan, and the Free Officers as such were not founded until after the war.

Other than that, it's a brilliant plan.

Best,
 

Deleted member 1487

Sadat was in jail, Nasser was in the Sudan, and the Free Officers as such were not founded until after the war.

Other than that, it's a brilliant plan.

Best,
The Egyptian CoS, whose name I cannot remember off the top of my head, was arrested while waiting for pickup by the Abwehr in 1942.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Aziz Ali al-Misri, and it was in 1941

The Egyptian CoS, whose name I cannot remember off the top of my head, was arrested while waiting for pickup by the Abwehr in 1942.

It was Aziz Ali al-Misri, and he was arrested in 1941. So, not much help in 1942...

Best,
 
They had newspapers you know...

One of the most popular books in the Arab World at that point was The Arab Awakening so it could give them ideas.... Anyway we are all talking in circles at this point its impossible to really determine and prove how the Egyptians would react.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Well, except one really can, based on what happened historically

One of the most popular books in the Arab World at that point was The Arab Awakening so it could give them ideas.... Anyway we are all talking in circles at this point its impossible to really determine and prove how the Egyptians would react.

Well, except that one really can, based on what happened historically; there was nothing resembling an uprsing or insurgency in the summer of 1942, and the handful of Egyptians who might have led one (in opposition to the monarchy and the Wafd, for example) were in custody or tucked away on the frontiers.

Even if there is some sort of "popular" incident, the reality is that in the 1940s, at least, with the firepower advantage the British and their allies/proxies had over any random group of ticked off Egyptian civilians, it is not going to go well. Think Amritsar.

Best,
 
One of the most popular books in the Arab World at that point was The Arab Awakening so it could give them ideas.... Anyway we are all talking in circles at this point its impossible to really determine and prove how the Egyptians would react.

Well, except that one really can, based on what happened historically; there was nothing resembling an uprsing or insurgency in the summer of 1942, and the handful of Egyptians who might have led one (in opposition to the monarchy and the Wafd, for example) were in custody or tucked away on the frontiers.

Even if there is some sort of "popular" incident, the reality is that in the 1940s, at least, with the firepower advantage the British and their allies/proxies had over any random group of ticked off Egyptian civilians, it is not going to go well. Think Amritsar.

Best,

I don't think that the question is of Arab revolts as to whether those in Egypt on corvee labour are unwilling or a little bit keen to help their 'liberators' or at least to help them smite the English Dogs.

As TF correctly points out the history of popular uprising has tended to be short and bloody...the success stories are famous because they are rare.
 
No the Allies won't be scrambling about with limited forces, they will most likely have lost Egypt through a pattern of premature withdrawals as Rommel did not have the forces to oppose the ones they had. Thus they will retain the bulk of their arms in the Middle East theatre especially given their superior ability to resupply.

I will note that you have requested all Axis problems be resolved with handwaves.

For the record, I know the principles, just didn't see the preceeding 5 Pages as very Constructive.

You managed to make a constructive statement here. A Key question is if the British collapsed forward or withdrew in an orderly fashion. Wiking?

You are noting me wrong BTW. I am simply stating that the axis must get to Suez before there Can be an after Suez is taken chain of events. Now lets discuss this based on either orderly withdrawal or major defeat.
 
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