Mexico; more afro-mexicans?

Apologies offered if topic offend, it is made in no wish to hurt anyone.

Just a random idea, cultural-ethnical make up of Mexico.

The spanish colonials, after noticing that apparently natives made 'lousy' slaves, they brought black slaves from Africa over good portions of the whole Spanish america, no? But from what I got, Mexico had not a lot, and they and descendants got assimilated in the 'melting pot', so to speak.

So, divergence...in modern Mexico, but feels free to discuss beyond it. How to have a sizably more portion-% of mexicans be eitheir african-mexicans so to speak (perhaps a separate identity emerging, like in USA and Brazil), or to at the minimum make it a more important part of the mixing bloods around. AND all the ramifications and consequences of it, like racial-social issues, an afro-mexican distinct culture maybe, the interactions between amerindians and the afro-mexicans, etc...

Could there be some existing or potential industries, or a plantation systems, need more slaves?

War around the hispanosphere ending that a Mexico gain perhaps Haiti-the whole Island, Cuba, etc?

Fugitive US slaves got granted a whole and open asylum?

Any ideas?
 
The thing is that there are actually quite a bit of afro-Mexicans, especially around Veracruz. But they just don't identify as such. As you pointed out they all got assimilated into the "meting pot" of New Spain.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
"Assimilated" nothing; they were forced to adopt the Mexican identity because blackness still relegated people to inferior social positions. So unless they wanted to be treated like shit, Afro-Mexicans tended to self-define as mestizo and basically hushed up their African heritage. New Spain wasn't a melting pot, it was a racially-defined hierarchy that disproportionately favored criollos over the mestizo and Indian majority; blacks were at the very bottom of New Spanish society and retained this unenviable position post-independence.
 
"Assimilated" nothing; they were forced to adopt the Mexican identity because blackness still relegated people to inferior social positions. New Spain wasn't a melting pot, it was a racially-defined hierarchy that disproportionately favored criollos over the mestizo and Indian majority.

Yeah, I heard about this mess.

So... how to shake up things up in a few ways?
 
The thing is that there are actually quite a bit of afro-Mexicans, especially around Veracruz. But they just don't identify as such. As you pointed out they all got assimilated into the "meting pot" of New Spain.
There are more in Guerrero and Oaxaca.

"Assimilated" nothing; they were forced to adopt the Mexican identity because blackness still relegated people to inferior social positions. So unless they wanted to be treated like shit, Afro-Mexicans tended to self-define as mestizo and basically hushed up their African heritage. New Spain wasn't a melting pot, it was a racially-defined hierarchy that disproportionately favored criollos over the mestizo and Indian majority; blacks were at the very bottom of New Spanish society and retained this unenviable position post-independence.
That didn't stop Vicente Guerrero from being... well... Vicente Guerrero.

Though, answering the question, the mixture of Afros with other castes might have been a way to ensure the kids were of a higher social standing. If the Spaniard racial laws were stricter, and more simplified, we would have more Afro-Mexicans. That easy.
However, in a more modern sense, most don't identify as Afro-Mexicans, since the post-revolutionary governments have done their best efforts on blurring off ethnic and racial lines (though, these still exist on a vis à vis basis), and more of them aren't interested in their Afro roots. Which is sad... :(
 
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You'd have to do away with Mexican racism against blacks. Which is gonna take one hell of a POD.

It's not possible to butterfly racism in Latin America, let alone Mexico. It would be nice if there was a POD that could address this but I can't think of one myself.
 
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It's not possible to butterfly racism in Latin America, let alone Mexico. It would be nice if there was a POD that could address this but I can't think of one myself.
Me neither which is why I said it would take one hell of a POD to do away with it.
 
Surely there were still far fewer blacks in Mexico than in other parts of the Americas. If there are enough of them, they will form a recognisable ethnic group, forced assimilation or not.

(And I'm sceptical about the forced assimilation point. Blacks were also the lowest of the social orders in Brazil but formed their own group.)
 
Surely there were still far fewer blacks in Mexico than in other parts of the Americas. If there are enough of them, they will form a recognisable ethnic group, forced assimilation or not.

(And I'm sceptical about the forced assimilation point. Blacks were also the lowest of the social orders in Brazil but formed their own group.)

I am not sure if they wher fewer in absolute numbers (new spain was rich, so its aristocrats could afford slaves), but since New spain had one of the largest population in precolumbian america, their numbBers would alway be small in relation to the population.

I mean, I'm sure they were more blacks in mexico than in uruguay, but uruguay had such a low population that even after banning slavery quite earlier and recieving A LOT of European settlers, there's still a visible community of afrodescendents.
 
You'd have to do away with Mexican racism against blacks. Which is gonna take one hell of a POD.

No you don't I'd say perhaps even quite the opposite. The United States (and the British Colonies before then) developed a unique african-american identity because the racism and social divisions were worse than in New Spain (and Mexico afterwards).

New Spain (and all Spain's colonies and their subsequent states) was as wolfpaw noted "a racially-defined hierarchy that disproportionately favored criollos over the mestizo and Indian majority". Laws and bureaucracy was passed in order to define the "races" and mixes under the castas to place some order. But this hierarchy was never clearly defined.

The castas system was a ridiculous mess put in place by the government in Spain. In the viceroyalties it wasn't ever enforced as was written by law but by the whims of the governors and local cuadillos. This allowed, at times, for certain groups to move up - blacks who could pass as mestizos, mestizos who could pass as criollos. But many times it caused the opposite; Indians were supposedly on equal footing to Spaniards by the laws printed in Spain (unless they actively resisted christianity), but the caudillos enslaved them by the thousands anyway. And since business was good, no one in New Spain raised a fuss about it.

As a consequence - if you were not a peninsular or a criollo - the deeper into the mestizo-pot you were and harder to define you became the easier you could move amongst the society.

As a contrast in the British colonies there were clear laws defining a British subject - later an American citizen and a slave. It got as bad as a one drop rule.

(Brazil is the interesting case, where it is kinda a mix of the two)
 
True, but in real life, there is a difference between principles and what really happens at times... Like around indian lands. I bet the racial mixing was more common and tolerated at times than official measures..
 
True, but in real life, there is a difference between principles and what really happens at times... Like around indian lands. I bet the racial mixing was more common and tolerated at times than official measures..

Of course things change. We forget that New Spain existed for roughly 300 years. The laws, practices, and demographics of New Spain were not the same in 1570 than they were in 1750.

Early on racial mixing was common and the caste system was loose. Regulation only got more drastic later on as Spain was trying to bring some "sense" into melting pot and the penninsulares and criollos tried to retain their status at the top over a population of mestizos of all kinds that grossly outnumbered them.
 
There was a tv show who spoke of the inspiration for Zorro.. some irish born guy, forgot his name, made much noise in the later 17th century. Maybe some of his ideas survive in a way, or a similar leader with a stroke of luck rise, on this aspect...

How to tie this to afro-mexicans... maybe escaped slaves around him, in the north of mexico...

No freaking idea how to give him a chance.
 
One simple fact to consider is the difficulty of communication within Mexico-I feel terrain and poor roads would keep the melting pot at a simmer. Given connection with the Carribean in general, and Cuba in particular, perhaps Veracruz and its environs could have developed an an Afro-Mexican majority?
 
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