Mexico joins the United States...in the 1990s?

The US has 50 states with 310+ million people. Mexico has 120+ million, sooooo...the appropriate number of states is probably in the teens. So let’s say 16. Some states are combined and others left alone. Admitting all 31 plus Mexico City may be a tough sell, but Mexico would fight a single-digit number tooth and nail. Based on population figures, 16 seems like the best number.

PR may or may not be admitted, but if Mexico City is admitted, DC almost has to be. So 67 right off. 68 if we go with PR. That seems fair.

And if we add Canada...lot of pissed off Canucks right off. And Quebec may secede and not go along with it. So let’s see here...Ontario gets in by itself. Maaaybe they merge Manitoba and Saskatchewan. All the Maritimes merge. So 5 or 6 states. Let’s say 6 for the powerful Western Canada lobby. So 74 now. Maybe add Guam/American Samoa/the Pacific territories into one state for 75.

There are a lot of common sense mergers - for example, Coahuila, Nuevo Leon and Tamaulipas merge rather nicely into the State of Rio Grande.

The issue with allowing too many Mexican states is that - in addition to more votes in the Senate - is that a good chunk of them are pretty small population wise. Only 14 of them have more than 3 million people - for comparison, 35 US states do.

I can see Mexico reduced to a dozen states as a compromise. 12 is a good number.

As for Canada, I see the only issue being the Maritimes... no freaking way do we give Prince Edward Island 2 Senators. Merge them into one Acadian state. Hell, maybe toss Newfoundland in there too.

That makes 7 Canadian states and 12 Mexican states. The United States of America with 69 states, make ya jokes now. Plus, Puerto Rico still dragging its feet from making an even 70.

As far as language, compromise - federal education funding will go towards two languages per state, one of which must always be English. French can still be taught in Quebec, Spanish in Mexico, and lots of room everywhere else to get creative.
 
lets also add another aspect to this and think a little further

canada still has a monarch as head of state that is a mess and a half to deal with in and of itself.


in regards to mexico i can see puerto rico becoming a state following this and a merging of states.
 
Internationally this would be curious, I can't imagine how Europe would react. Maybe the Europhiles would see this as inspiration for the EU (continent-wide multi-ethnic federations). Britain (Canadians), France(Quebecois) and Spain(Mexicans) would have some concern for their ethnic minorities in the new USA and that could cause some tension.

Russia would probably not care as this is Russia in the 90s, they have way bigger things to deal with. A question, but would an even more powerful USA keep the USSR together out of fear or is it too late? I see China and India having a bit of trouble, with the US busy looking inwards and investing in their new states that could delay the rise of the Third World for a while. Depending on how low labour costs are in American Mexico, I potentially imagine Apple and other silicon valley companies setting up manufacturing in Mexico rather than China/India/Indonesia.

I'm curious as to how the Americans would deal with Mexican gangs that are now operating in their country, would they go with full force from the get-go? Or would they try different tactics? Either way, it's gonna be an expensive problem. By the way if you're planning to reduce the number of states by merging Canadian provinces or Mexican states, why not merge a few of your own? Oklahoma to Texas, Arizona and New Mexico, North and South Dakota, all the New England states together. You could retain 50 states that way.
 
When in the 1990s do you propose this occurring, exactly? Either way, this will absolutely tear the Republican Party asunder, with massive numbers of cultural conservatives fearing what they predict will be an irrevocable transformation of the country. I could see Pat Buchanan running a single-issue presidential campaign in 1996 or 2000 to try and halt this... and he would likely do fairly well.
 
So taking some cues from what others suggested in the thread and some of my own ideas, I got this WIP of a united North America since Canada joining as well. Quebec is independent while Chiapas is under military occupation due to the ongoing Zapatista uprising.

I could use some suggestions on which other Mexican states I should combine and some second opinions if anyone's got any:
MZpol6m.png


Numbered states in order of when I made them on the map:

1. Rio Grande
2. Yucatan
3. Chihuahua
4. Sonora
5. The Maritimes (New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island)
6. Newfoundland (Newfoundland and Labrador)
7. Ontario
8. Columbia (British Columbia)
9. The Prairies (Manitoba and Saskatchewan)
10. Alberta
11. First Nations (Yukon, Northwest Territories, Nunavut)
12. Mexico State ([Unmarked]. State of Mexico, Morelos, Tlaxcala)
13. Chiapas ([Under Rebellion])
 
When in the 1990s do you propose this occurring, exactly? Either way, this will absolutely tear the Republican Party asunder, with massive numbers of cultural conservatives fearing what they predict will be an irrevocable transformation of the country. I could see Pat Buchanan running a single-issue presidential campaign in 1996 or 2000 to try and halt this... and he would likely do fairly well.

Depends on the exact PoD. Early 1990s, say April of 1991 just for giggles, would be interesting as you can compare the developments that decade with Mexico in the Union. Also, for some things brought up that I've seen:

Infrastructure - World Bank estimate I found suggested that in 2002 it would take a sustained yearly commitment of $20 Billion over 10 years to develop Mexico to first World standards. Given the peace dividend of the 1990s and Mexico's Congressional representation, that's definitely possible.

Law and Order - To this, ironically, I return to Noel Maurer:

After that trip, I noted that Mexico spent shockingly little on law and order, defined broadly. Total spending on police, courts and defense came to only 1.1% of GDP, less than a third of the level in the United States. Seven years later, as violence once more swings upwards, Mexico spends ... all of 1.4% of GDP on law and order.

Spending data come from page 20 of this new report; figures divided by GDP from here.

The report digs in a little further with international comparisons. Consider how much Mexico spends on police (seguridad interior, as opposed to justicia or seguridad nacional.) Well, 1.4% of all federal spending goes for that ... compared 4.7% for most OECD nations and 6.2% in Italy ... and Italy, unlike Mexico, is a country which has managed to contain its serious problem with organized crime.

Since I was not sure how Ethos made its calculations, I dug up the OECD numbers on general government expenditure by function. (General government includes subnational governments.) For comparability, I converted everything into a percentage of GDP.

What has the money been spent on? The number of federal police has almost quadrupled between 2006 and 2015, to 43,724 from 11,663. Real average salaries only rose 9% between 2010 and 2015. (Page 34, deflated by the INPC.) You might wonder how such a mighty expansion in payroll was sustained on such a small increase in spending, but note that the federal police payroll takes up only 5% of all security spending.

So more cops, but becoming a cop did not become more attractive (quite the reverse, given the rising danger) and the quality of police officers did not rise. Now, to be fair, federal federal police officers are well-paid by Mexican standards; approximately US$15,400 per year. But state and local police are paid much less: US$7,800 on average. The highest paid are in Sinaloa, reaching barely US$10,900.

And by other measures, the Mexican criminal justice system is a mess. The U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) collects figures on prosecutors and judges. Per 100,000 people, Mexico had 6.8 prosecutors and 4.2 judges in 2013. Call it 11 per 100,000. That same year, crime-ridden Scotland mustered 9.9 prosecutors and 4.9 judges ... 15 per 100,000. And Italy enjoyed only 3.1 prosecutors but 17.1 judges ... 20 per 100,000. (In the Italian system prosecutors are considered judges; it is not clear how UNODC made the distinction.)

Combine that with badly-trained cops, and you have a mess. 85% of all criminal cases in Mexico were commited en flagrancia; meaning that the cops caught the perp while he or she was committing the crime. And in the rest, most cases have been resolved by beating confessions out of whomever the police pick up. In theory, new reforms have made confessions inadmissible save in the presence of a defense attorney (page 20). In practice, it is not clear that anything has changed, especially given as the ability of the police to investigate crimes is practically nil and bribery still reigns supreme.

I still tend to think that Mexico can solve its crime problem. I also tend to think that while throwing money at it is not a sufficient condition for doing so, it is a necessary one. 2.6% of GDP, like Colombia? Five percent, like nowhere? I do not know. But more seems clearly necessary. Am I wrong?
 
Why? Why would Latinos vote for the party that already back then controlled the South, i. e. already back then showed signs of some serious racism?
Keep in mind American Latinos and Mexicans have different histories. Lations have a long history with the Democratic Party, but native Mexicans hold no such loyalty, and also tend to be vastly more religious.
This is no less unlikely than Al gore being elected tbh.
I mena, Al Gore technically WON the popular vote in 2000. Just a few more votes in the right places and he would have won.
 
To be honest, a unified North America would be better for everyone. For the US China’s rise would be slower, because offshoring wouldn’t happen to the extent it did IOTL. Factories would just move to to Mexico, which now being part of the US would mean that technically these factories wern’t outsourced. The US might still be the world’s largest Industrial Power, an Industrial Titan. For Mexico wages would see a huge rise, first off new American factories moving in would create more jobs, second, American infrastructure spending to interlink the constant would create even more jobs, and third off the American Minimum Wage would apply to Mexico now, and any consequences of this dramatic pay increase would be offset by American Government spending. One group of Mexicans that would be negatively effect, would be the Mexican Peasantry who would be crushed by American agricultural automation techniques. However all in all, Mexico will probably benefit. Another group in Mexico, that would be crushed is the Drug Carrells, IOTL their only able to survive because of corruption in the Mexican Army. However they would be no match for the American Army.

Politically, it’s likely that PAN in Mexico, and the Conservative Party in Canada are assimilated into the GOP. Parts of the PRI and the Canadian Liberal Party will likely be assimilated into the Democrats. However, I think in wake of such unification a merger of the NDP in Canada, the more left wing factions of the PRI might for a Social Democrat third party, which would defiantly shake up American Politics.

Because of how focused America will be on internal assimilation of the annexation of Canada and Mexico, and bring Mexico up to first world living standards, American intervention abroad will be less. No intervention in Yugoslavia. Less military bases in foreign countries.

The 2000 election will be interesting. Bush will likely still be president, but not with Dick Cheney as VP, but probably some random ex-PAN leader. The GOP and Democrats will both probably get around 45% of Congress. I think the Social Democrat third party will gain around 10% of Congress. 9/11 will still happen. Thus America will still invade Afghanistan, but not Iraq. This is because America is already focused on internal issues and dealing with Afganistan. Their is no room for the Iraaq War. Plus Dick Cheney will not be in the government.

All in all, I think pretty much everyone this time line would be better.
 
The U.S. certainly didn't turn turtle in the 1990s but, at the same time, the combination of the Peace Dividend and focusing on the internal situation in developing Mexico could make the U.S. more reluctant to do interventions. This could definitely have effects in the Balkans but, at the same time, a possible lack of Blackhawk Down syndrome could somewhat mollify this.
 
The U.S. certainly didn't turn turtle in the 1990s but, at the same time, the combination of the Peace Dividend and focusing on the internal situation in developing Mexico could make the U.S. more reluctant to do interventions. This could definitely have effects in the Balkans but, at the same time, a possible lack of Blackhawk Down syndrome could somewhat mollify this.
Would this mean that Serbia might win the Yugoslav Civil Wars?
 
federal education funding will go towards two languages per state, one of which must always be English. French can still be taught in Quebec, Spanish in Mexico, and lots of room
I wonder about how much of Mexico will take the chance to jump at getting Nahuatl or Maya promoted ahead of Spanish. The Yucatan has a fair number of votes for that IIRC.
 

DougM

Donor
How is this not ASB? Thier was no way on gods green earth that the typical US citizen is going to put up with this in the 1990s. They will see it as the destruction of the US and its culture. By the time thier is any chance of the people accepting it from a culture /language point of view, some years later you have the mess with Mexican drugs and gangs and such making it all but impossible.
Canada yes Mexico? No way on earth.
Heck in the 1990s we came close to seeing laws pass making English the official (and only) language and you think the US would except that many people in who speak little to no English?
Were any of you folks alive in the 90s?
 
No thoughts on my alternate state border proposals?
How strong are the population's emotional ties to the states in question? In terms of size/population a number of states in El Norte could also be merged out of practicality but the attempt would cause screaming fits.
 
This premise is simply ASB without a significant POD that changes the very makeup of the US, its people, and its politics. By "significant POD" I mean something that changes the 1990s US into something unrecognizable to people in OTL.

Why? Because the whole question of Mexico, Mexicans and the fear of "brown skinned people taking over America" is a compelling set of fears that has driven small, but important voting groups to the polls for a 150 years. If equal rights was that big of a challenge for the political establishment in the 1960s, can you imagine the hyper-anxiety the thought of the addition of 120 million new "non-white voters" would do?!?! The pieces on the political playing board are set and the game has started: Anyone who wants to change the rules of the game, or add pieces to the board is threatening the "balance" that keeps the game recognizable to the players (politicians) who are already playing. This is the reason we still have the electoral college. This is why Puerto Rico and other US territories aren't states. This is why Gerrymandering is still a thing.

Also remember that the average Joe in the 1990s had watched US manufacturing jobs disappear overseas for decades (just listen to some Bruce Springsteen). Why are these people going to feel compelled to support absorption of 120M people that are going to compete with them for jobs in their own country? They aren't.

As a political issue, this is just too risky for most politicians to touch with a 40 foot pole, too anxiety-inducing for the average citizen, and too easy to shoot down with scary TV spots.

We're going to need a very early POD (probably in the pre-1900 forum) that butterflies away most of US history to accomplish this.
 
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