Mexican Phantoms...

MacCaulay

Banned
I was looking at a model of an F-4 I've got and I noticed that the Vietnam paint scheme was very similar to that of the modern Mexican air force. So it got me thinking...a lot of countries bought the F-4 in the 80s or 90s as a cheap way to bring themselves up a generation or two in capabilities.

What circumstances could result in Mexico operating F-4 Phantom IIs in the 70s or 80s?
 

Sachyriel

Banned
Uhhhh, the Mexicans want to have some pride in their military and some ability to call for air support if anti-drug smuggling issues get kinda big (as they tend to do). So they buy these planes, and some smart guy thinks that "Hey you know what kind of image would go great on the side of my plane? Speedy Gonzales" because it's a fast plane, and his name is Gonzales.

Then it turns out drug smugglers have taken Mr. Gonzales' sister, and are going to blackmail him in order to fly drugs for them all over the country; no one will ever suspect the military of transporting drugs :)rolleyes:). And so he does it, since if he doesn't his sister dies (and her kids! :eek:), packing his flight suit full of the drugs he walks kinda funny and when his wingmates ask him why he's walking with a branch up his ass he says something about the bad food he at last night. As they take off he deviates from the normal path, then activates a 'flight malfunction' device that the drug cartel had their operatives put in the plane (the operative was the mechanic, so no one asked the guy what he was doing, that looked like what he was supposed to be doing). He ejects safely, pretty much in the middle of nowhere where the trade off is supposed to go down.

He gives the drugs from his suit to one of the cartel guys and they let his sister and her kids go. As she gets behind him he pulls out a 9mm pistol and shoots the drug cartel guys and save the day; these bastards that kidnapped his family drop down as his wingmates fly over him to see if he's okay. They saw him kill a whole bunch of people with drugs, and save a few people. It's only thanks to the lack of knowledge the cartels had about how a pilot is expected to survive behind enemy lines that his crazy "pull the gun and shoot" plan worked.

As the Mexican military land vehicles drive up in the distance his plane explodes even more so, having landed on a hidden base for the drug cartel that contained loads of fuel, drugs, firearms and fireworks that finally exploded when the burning plane got too close to it. There are so much drugs inside that the smoke from this hidden base travels over the border and into Texas; George W. Bush takes a whiff and decides not to follow his daddy's footsteps and become a country music star.

And that my friends, is how the Mexican Phantom named Speedy Gonzales took out a drug cartel and made the USA elect Al Gore in the year 2000.
 
I don't think Mexico could afford Rhinos: they nearly went bankrupt in the early 1990s and their economy wasn't exactly overheating until recently. Ask Mav for details: he's the resident Latin American expert. ;) I think they had WWII equipment until the 1980s.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
And that my friends, is how the Mexican Phantom named Speedy Gonzales took out a drug cartel and made the USA elect Al Gore in the year 2000.

And...YOU win the thread!

I don't think Mexico could afford Rhinos: they nearly went bankrupt in the early 1990s and their economy wasn't exactly overheating until recently. Ask Mav for details: he's the resident Latin American expert. ;) I think they had WWII equipment until the 1980s.

I've got a Jane's Intelligence Review from 1997 that shows a military parade in Mexico City with M3 halftracks. Honest to god halftracks.

I'm kind of thinking of the Mexicans getting them used. You know, ex-ANG or Luftwaffe kind of things, so there's not a lot of startup cost. Like a Peace Dividend sort of thing with Clinton wanting to get rid of some stuff.
 
And...YOU win the thread!



I've got a Jane's Intelligence Review from 1997 that shows a military parade in Mexico City with M3 halftracks. Honest to god halftracks.

I'm kind of thinking of the Mexicans getting them used. You know, ex-ANG or Luftwaffe kind of things, so there's not a lot of startup cost. Like a Peace Dividend sort of thing with Clinton wanting to get rid of some stuff.

The M3 or M113 is perfectly fine for Mexico. They don't need BMP's or Bradley's because their mission profile is either internal revolt (which doesn't require 20mm chain guns or 76mm smooth bores or anti tank rockets) or some kind of squabble with one of their neighbors to the south who are going to be armed equally poorly if not worse.

Its not like Mexico needs or ever needed to gaurd the Fulda Gap or go for a trip through downtown Baghdad
 

MacCaulay

Banned
The M3 or M113 is perfectly fine for Mexico. They don't need BMP's or Bradley's because their mission profile is either internal revolt (which doesn't require 20mm chain guns or 76mm smooth bores or anti tank rockets) or some kind of squabble with one of their neighbors to the south who are going to be armed equally poorly if not worse.

Its not like Mexico needs or ever needed to gaurd the Fulda Gap or go for a trip through downtown Baghdad

Yes, but it's not the sort of thing you keep around because you love it so much. Heck, even the Israelis replaced their halftracks with M113s when they could. It's got to be more of a financial decision.
 
Yes, but it's not the sort of thing you keep around because you love it so much. Heck, even the Israelis replaced their halftracks with M113s when they could. It's got to be more of a financial decision.
Yea of course... if they could get Bradley's fully stocked with a ton of spare parts for a few pesos then sure why not, but its low on the national priority scale when the half tracks can take care of internal revolt which would seem to be the army's primary mission profile (besides providing covering fire for drug smugglers)
 
They'd be using the Rhinos as bomb trucks essentially. Mexico has protection from the US in the north, because I don't fancy the odds of a Rhino against one of Hugo's Flankers.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
They'd be using the Rhinos as bomb trucks essentially. Mexico has protection from the US in the north, because I don't fancy the odds of a Rhino against one of Hugo's Flankers.

Depends on the driver, among other things. I'll take an IAF driver in an F-4 2000, a Luftwaffe pilot in an ICE, an U.S. Air Guard Weasel driver or even a Turkish AF pilot in a Terminator 2020 over a Venezuelan in a Flanker.

Training tells. Maintenence means a lot.
 
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So it's a tossup as to whether the Mexican Double Uglies would live very long against Hugo's Sukhois?

A lot of factors in that one, as CalBear (rightly) points out. How well do the Venezuelans fly? How well are they maintaining those shiny Flankers? How good are the Mexican pilots? What is each plane armed with? (If the Mexicans have BVR missiles and the Venezuelans don't, it don't matter how good the Flanker is......) Does one side or another have AWACS support? (Mexico bought three Hawkeyes from the Israelis in 2004.)
 

MacCaulay

Banned
You really like Phantoms,eh?

Not like I like Centurions or Mirage IIIs, but I like them alot. They're like the systems I named before: they've been endlessly improved since they were first introduced and were able to keep up with the time. That's what's amazing about them. They can change and improve with the times, and I think that's one of the most impressive attributes about a weapon system.

It's not how amazing and asskicking a system is when it first appears on the battlefield. It's how long it stays there that counts!
 
How well do the Venezuelans fly? How well are they maintaining those shiny Flankers?

Not that well, if what I hear is correct. Apparently Flanker availability in the Venezuelan Air Force is worse than the F-16 availability. Also apparently, when the Venezuelans fired some air-to-ground missiles(Kh-58 anti-radar missiles, IIRC) in a recent exercise, the ground personnel preparing the missiles were Russian, as were the backseaters firing them from the Su-30s.
 
I've got a Jane's Intelligence Review from 1997 that shows a military parade in Mexico City with M3 halftracks. Honest to god halftracks.

I'm no great fan of halftracks (maintenance, having both the disadvantages of tracks and wheels etc) but I thought the Israeli's used their M3's untill into the '80s and they probably still have a lot of them in reserve.

I'm kind of thinking of the Mexicans getting them used. You know, ex-ANG or Luftwaffe kind of things, so there's not a lot of startup cost. Like a Peace Dividend sort of thing with Clinton wanting to get rid of some stuff

Even if they got them for free, it'd still be a bad idea for Mexico or any other country with money issues to use them.
IIRC one third to two third of the total cost of an aircraft isn't in the cost of purchase but rather in the maintenance, supply and use of it.
I wouldn't say the Phantom was a hangarqueen, but it was famous for needing a lot of work and wasn't as easy to work on as aircraft from a generation later like the F-16.
From that perspective the Mexicans had a much better deal with their F-5's (which they still use?).

Also they need about 0 supersonic fighter/bombers.
They have a much bigger need of transportaircraft, helicopters, a few turboprops with some hardpoints and a shedload of reconnaissance aircraft.
Which accidentally also pretty much sums up their real life airforce. :D
 
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