Messi's & Cristiano's tallies in UCL if defense were as tough as that of World Cup knockout stage

Fenestella

Banned
Although Barcelona was a much better team than Argentina and Real Madrid and Manchester United were better than Portugal, the fact that Messi has played 7 World Cup knockout games and never scored and Cristiano Ronaldo has played 5 World Cup knockout games and never scored has exposed how weak defensively most teams in the Champions league knockout games have been in recent years compared to most teams in World Cup knockout games.

Could Messi and C. Ronaldo score half of the goals they've scored in the UCL knockout games if most teams defended like most World Cup eighth-finalists, quarter-finalists, semi-finalists, and finalists did?
 
Actually... That makes me think differently. Messi and Ronaldo are both carriers of their nation. If the players around them are not of the same level as in their club, it makes sense that their performance cannot get optimal. It isn't just because the opponents of Real and Barca are bad defensively.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Actually... That makes me think differently. Messi and Ronaldo are both carriers of their nation. If the players around them are not of the same level as in their club, it makes sense that their performance cannot get optimal. It isn't just because the opponents of Real and Barca are bad defensively.
This.
 
You can see it, at least for Messi, during Conmebol qualifying for WC...most of south American defenses are tough with him, tactical fouls against him all the time...the rest of the job is made by Messi himself by demoralizing and going down during the matches...and the usual opinion in Argentina is...well, the marks are tighten than the soften one in Spain or in UCL
 
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The defensive monsters like Atleti or past Chelsea squads would actually be weaker if they were of World Cup level defense. They aren't as solid, and the pressing tactic less advanced (a feature of NTs playing together less than clubs). Messi's FCB & CR7's RM would, IMO, gain more goals instead. They could win more CLs.

With Barca & RM being super-clubs compared to the stature of Argentina & Portugal among fellow national teams too

You can see ir, at least for Messi, during Conmebol qualifying for WC...most of south American defenses are tough with him, tactical fouls against him all the time...the rest of the job is made by Messi himself by demoralizing and going down during the matches...and the usual opinion in Argentina is...well, the marks are tighten than the soften one in Spain or in UCL
The mind boggling thing is even if he's battered like that, coupled with suspect CONMEBOL officiating, he's still Argentina's greatest threat. Argentina went on a winless streak when they didn't have Messi in qualifiers, even with all their world clasa attacking talent.

Seems to me the post-Copa America Centenario Argentina are just too dysfunctional a team. Unlike the solid defensive unit of 2014 which clawed their way to the final. Contrast Portugal also improving in areas aside from Ronaldo himself (not saying he didn't improve, just that Portugal also improved in other areas), up to their Euro 2016 victory (normally mediocre-bad Eder suddenly becoming national hero).

Messi also rarely goes down deliberately (happens when he's unusually desperate. CR7 still does it but increasingly rarely as he ages), he tries to keep on dribbling since his skill allows him to gain more playing clean. Though his free kick skill becoming a contender for world's best can make this untrue someday when he physically declines.

Some of the tac fouls him, and honestly most star players in CONMEBOL receive, are hard enough to actually make em fo down for real.
 

Fenestella

Banned
When it comes to World Cup knockout stage, Messi has played seven 90-minute-games plus four extra times, CRonaldo five 90-minute-games plus one extra time - more than 1200 minutes played, 0 goal scored: how is "Argentina and Portugal too weak" a better excuse than World Cup knockout stage's defense too tough?
 
When it comes to World Cup knockout stage, Messi has played seven 90-minute-games plus four extra times, CRonaldo five 90-minute-games plus one extra time - more than 1200 minutes played, 0 goal scored: how is "Argentina and Portugal too weak" a better excuse than World Cup knockout stage's defense too tough?
A team sport of quite a few players like football means individual quality, no matyer how generationally legendary, can only go so much if the rest of your team is a mess and the opponents are even more together. Overreliance is generally a bad idea. Case in point the periods of Messidependencia in FCB where it's easy to isolate him. Argentina & Portugal being not all that great compared to other NTs, contrast with FCB & RM being titans with few equals, means they can easily snuff out their main threat and with how mediocre the rest of the team is, snuff out the whole team.

Worse teams means their focal points are less protected & supported, thus inevitable sharp downturn of performance. Even then, Messi & Ronaldo performs in indirect ways (assists, key passess, their very presence drawing 2-3 players systemically marking them). Messi & Ronaldo being triple marked in clubs is less of an issue because other effective options allow them to create/be created opportunities to score.

Contrast basketball which can be heavily influenced by 1-2 stars to swing games more often.

Edit: if good, great, or at least system-fitting average players just exist on the same field to be an extra threat, it can create enough distraction from the double-triple marking of either Messi & CR7 for them to take control of the match almost singlehandedly. We see this tons of time with defensive quality greater than all National Teams, thanks to better chemistry & the collection of great, good, or system-fit players of multiple nationalities (instead of the usual case of national teams; with a few "main" players and mediocre, bad, or even system-unfit players because of the differences in the process of squad creation to clubs. Transfers, academies, & better supporting facilities & systems mainly)

Mention that most clubs surpass all NTs, and it wouldn't be a surprise. Example: Bayern Munich who make up a lot of the German NT would still beat the 2014 team because players more commonly play better at the clubs, because of factors I've already mentioned
 
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2010 World Cup, shots attempted: Messi 21, Higuain 13 (4 goals), Di Maria 7, Tevez 6 (2 goals)
Damn, this is as a playmaker. Shows how much Argentina overrelies on him when he plays in the NT by dropping down to the midfield, and he still takes the most shots.

Also this is 2010 Argentina? Maradona's Argentina huh. The only Argentina as bas as that is the 2018 one. Maradona being a horrible manager contributes a lot to that shittiness (wth AFA chose him just cause he's their legend I'll never know)
 

Fenestella

Banned
Messi and CRonaldo are hyped, only prolific against haphazard defenses.
At least Messi has proved his formidable dribbling ability against World Cup knockout stage's defense.
 
Messi and CRonaldo are hyped, only prolific against haphazard defenses.
At least Messi has proved his formidable dribbling ability against World Cup knockout stage's defense.
Ronaldo very much proved he can against Spain in 2018, for even in the group stage Spain is Spain. Against tough defenses in 2014 Messi assisted the goals to his teammates in the knockouts all the way to the final. Besides, goals & assists aren't the be and all offensive mark, their very presence provide great leeway to their teammates by drawing the defense through their very threat. Just by being in field they allow more opportunities. No other players are as consistently multiple-marked.

On them being "hyped". Atletico has for a period of several seasons no team in the world scoring more than 2 goals against them. This is with star studded attack against them. And Atleti puts together a defense greater than any other team, club and country, in their defensive prime. Ronaldo put past 3, on his own, against them. Messi with the venerable Tridente offense with Suarez & Neymar combined to defeat Atleti, also with FCB having 3.

Messi put 2 in the 3-0 17/18 win over Chelsea, defending champions of England who were FCB's boogeymen with their bus-parking. Ronaldo took part in the 4-0 thumping of FC Bayern in 13/14, then defending champions of Europe with world class defenders in Lahm & Boateng along with defensive midfield in Javi Martinez.

They can and have dismantled the world's best defenses. Due to the nature of the sport, with supporting players' quality & fit mattering a lot, it's not so out of the ordinary their performance will suffer with a (some say much) worse team, even against generally worse defense compared to CL's great teams. Also them underperforming.

By most statistical metric totaling performance of club & country both are so far ahead other attacking players in their era that they can only be compared with each other.
 

Fenestella

Banned
The "rivalry" is also a hype, CRonaldo is not even close to Messi IMO, so I won't waste my time on him.
On Messi:
2014 WC quarterfinal 94' one on one versus Courtois, failed to score
2014 WC final 47' one on one versus Neuer, failed to score
He is unaccustomed to this level of pressure, intensity, and scarcity of chances. He would be better prepared if on club level he had to face more opponents like the 2009-10 Inter Milan, 08-09 Chelsea.
 
2014 WC final 47' one on one versus Neuer, failed to score
And right after that un the 14/15 season, he put 2 past Neuer at home & if I remember correctly 1 away, in a 5-3 aggregate victory against Bayern, an equal of FCB. He always faces tough opponents like Inter & Chelsea in every CL.

Aside from Chelsea & Inter which you already mentioned; Manchester United is the final opponent of Barca in both 08/09 & 10/11. MU got there without much strife against strong teams, but Messi with Barca's golden age team beat them decisively both times. In 07/08 a tight loss against MU which still has Ronaldo at the time (MU went on to win it). 2011/12, Chelsea (lost. Chelsea went on to win the CL). 2012/13, the best Bayern team in decades (lost, though Messi did play with injury. His manager & friend Tito Vilanova is also fighting a losing battle against cancer. Bayern went on to win the CL). 2013/14, Atletico Madrid (lost, that was Diego Simeone's best managed Atleti who beat both Real Madrid & Barca to win the league). 2014/15; won against PSG (beat him in the group), Bayern (Now Guardiola managed), and then Juventus in the final (who beat Ronaldo's Real Madrid). 15/16 against an Atleti who is weaker in the league but stronger in CL (lost, Atleti wen). 2016/17 Got past 4-0 defeat against PSG with a 6-1 home win. Then against one of the strongest Juve squad ever in the QFs (lost, Juve went on to the final). 2017/18, beat Chelsea comfortably (Barca's longtime bane) while putting 2 past Courtois. Then lost by away goals against AS Roma's historic performance (AS Roma barely lost in the semis against Liverpool).

So he has faced that scarcity of chances & greater intensity. What he doesn't is the greater pressure, thanks to being national talisman & the shadow of Maradona.

On scarcity of chances affecting him more in national competitions, Messi can only create so many chances if his teammates didn't bury them. The lack of the well performing Di Maria in the '14 final thanks to injury, better compared to other fellow chance creator in Argentina aside from Messi himself, affected Messi's own performance (an event repeated in the '16 Copa America).

On pressure, the Maradona shadow in Argentina clearly affects Messi a lot, in the way fellow countrymen can negatively views him as well as how clear the overreliance is in the national team. They lost 6-1 to Spain in the lead up to 2018 cup, without Messi. I think he delivers under pressure when bailing them out to barely squeak past the South American qualifiers, but less so in the tourney. Still on pressure; the Iceland penalty miss is not just about pressure, he has paradoxically sucked in pens but godly in free kicks in the past few seasons.

Though I think Messi is better, they're very very close. Ronaldo does achieve more national achievement than Messi with the '16 Euro win. It's a mixed bag more in Messi's favor in clubs (Ronaldo has 1 more CL title, but is left behind in league in domestic cups). Individual performance wise, Messi has a good chance to catch up to Ronaldo's goal tally while being 2 years younger, and he has decisively more assists.
 

Fenestella

Banned
Inter Milan 09-10 and Chelsea 08-09 are the toughest defensive opponents Messi has faced on club level.
The overall defensive quality of UCL knockout games has jumped the shark since then, and hit a new low in the last two seasons.
 
Inter Milan 09-10 and Chelsea 08-09 are the toughest defensive opponents Messi has faced on club level.
The overall defensive quality of UCL knockout games has jumped the shark since then, and hit a new low in the last two seasons.
Ah well, it seems unlikely we'll see eye to eye on CL defensive quality. Let's agree to disagree
 
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