Merovingians still on the throne post-751

What if Childeric III wasn't deposed by Pippin III in 751? What would the consequences be for Francia into the later 8th/early 9th century? Could Charlemagne happen?

Let's assume that Pippin is still around, but the Pope decides that him and Boniface don't deserve the throne, maybe because of a Lombard threat of invasion?

At the time Childeric had a son (Theuderic, would be the V), who was similar age to Karl (who would become Charlemagne OTL, but not really period appropriate to call him such until after 800). Would he qualify for inheritance after Childeric dies (naturally) around 755?

Share your thoughts! :)

- BNC
 
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Karl would remain the majordomo. The Saxons might not be conquered perhaps leading to a north south European split with a greatly delayed or absent christianisation of northern Europe.
 
If you want the Merovingians to remain on the throne, you'll have to get rid of Charles Martel, who had established himself as the power behind the throne and de-facto king of the Franks thanks to the increasingly decentralized state of the Merovingian kingdom.

As for what a continued Merovingian Francia would look like? It may very well end up in a similar position to the HRE, with a powerless king stuck between bickering mayors and lords. Or maybe one of the later Merovingians pulls a Dagobert and successfully strengthens the crown.
 
Karl would remain the majordomo. The Saxons might not be conquered perhaps leading to a north south European split with a greatly delayed or absent christianisation of northern Europe.

The Saxons launched a big raid on Deventer in January 772. Someone would demand payback. That would probably still result in Irminsul being burned. Maybe the process takes longer than OTL? Paganism wouldn't last forever, unless every pagan country somehow found a way to become an organised state, and keep their religion. Then they would have to deal withsome kind of Papal reaction in the 10th/11th/12th centuries.

If you want the Merovingians to remain on the throne, you'll have to get rid of Charles Martel, who had established himself as the power behind the throne and de-facto king of the Franks thanks to the increasingly decentralized state of the Merovingian kingdom.

Wasn't Pippin II (Martel's father) a kind of defacto king as well?

As for what a continued Merovingian Francia would look like? It may very well end up in a similar position to the HRE, with a powerless king stuck between bickering mayors and lords. Or maybe one of the later Merovingians pulls a Dagobert and successfully strengthens the crown.

Childeric III had said he was content with just the throne (and his beard), and for the Karlings to do all the work. When his son takes over (and after any regencies), would he be in any way inclined to fight the Karlings (probably still Pippin III at this point)? After all, the previous Karlings had been treating the Merovingians as a joke for something close to a century.

- BNC
 
Wasn't Pippin II (Martel's father) a kind of defacto king as well?

He definitely was, but Martel was the one who first began to reconcile the Franks with the Papacy, defeated the Umayyad Caliphate at Tours and ultimately subjugated the remainder of Gaul under Frankish control, paving the way for the rise of the Carolingian Empire under his grandson.

Childeric III had said he was content with just the throne (and his beard), and for the Karlings to do all the work. When his son takes over (and after any regencies), would he be in any way inclined to fight the Karlings (probably still Pippin III at this point)? After all, the previous Karlings had been treating the Merovingians as a joke for something close to a century.

Potentially, but it depends on how crafty and skilled at arms his son is. If he wants to consolidate power, he'll need the support of the Papacy. Perhaps intervening on the behalf of Adrian I in regards to Lombard incursions into the Pentapolis. The Saxons too will need to be brought to heel, if the lords of Austrasia want to feel safe under Merovingian rule.

In other words, he'll have to follow a path not dissimilar to Charlemagne, while all the while beating off attempts at usurping/curbing his power by the majordomo.
 
I imagine that the Merovingians would be inclined to side with the Lombards (under Aistulf) against the Karlings, who by 751 had firmly joined the Pope in something of an alliance. Remember that the pope has power only in name, but can't do much against Lombard armies.

Theuderic (V) was about 8 at the time of his father's death, and had been stuck in a monastery OTL most of his life. If his father hadn't been thrown out in 751, logically he would still be in the 'royal' court (Pippin's court) at 755, so would have a better chance to pick up the administrative skills needed by a ruler.

His reign would probably be similar to his father's until Pippin III dies, and then he might take power in 768/9 when Karl and Karloman are arguing about their dynastic succession.

In other words, he'll have to follow a path not dissimilar to Charlemagne, while all the while beating off attempts at usurping/curbing his power by the majordomo.

Internally I agree with that. Probably invading Bavaria, Lombardy, Septimania and other places would be detrimental to the dynastic power. Maybe having Karl as a general?

- BNC
 
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