Merovingian WI: Charles Martel killed at the Battle of Amblève?

[Emperor Constantine]

Hey all, this is kinda a niche WI, but I'll try to explain as best as I can. So I've recently became interested in the Merovingian dynasty (modern France's first ruling line) and came across something quite interesting to me. Chilperic II was the last of the strong Merovingian rulers (the last that wasn't a complete puppet) and nearly reestablished his dynasty's power in Neustria and Austrasia in the early 8th century, before losing to Charles Martel in a series of battles. The battle that seemed to have been the deciding factor was the Battle of Amblève. Quoting Wikipedia:

"In 716, he (Chilperic) and Ragenfrid together led an army into Austrasia, then being warred over by Plectrude, on behalf of her grandson Theudoald, and Charles Martel, the son of Pepin of Heristal. The Neustrians allied with another invading force under Radbod, King of the Frisians and met Charles in battle near Cologne, then held by Plectrude. Chilperic was victorious and Charles fled to the mountains of the Eifel. The king and his mayor then turned to besiege their other rival in the city. Plectrude acknowledged Chilperic as king, gave over the Austrasian treasury, and abandoned her grandson's claim to the mayoralty.At this juncture, events took a turn against Chilperic. As he and Ragenfrid were leading their triumphant soldiers back to Neustria, Charles fell on them near Malmedy and in the Battle of Amblève, Charles routed them and they fled. Thereafter, Charles Martel remained virtually undefeated and Chilperic's strong will was subdued in a series of campaigns waged in Neustrian territory."

So what if Charles Martel's ambush at Ambléve failed and the would-be Mayor of the Palace was instead killed in battle? With the "Carolingian" power broken in Francia, would the Merovingians manage to take their place and reassert full control? Could the Franks still beat the Muslim invasion at TTL Tours? Or would another Mayoral dynasty take control, and see this Merovingian restoration turn into a Kenmu (aka the failed Japanese Imperial restoration of the 14th century)? @John7755 يوحنا ?

 

[Nivek]

With the "Carolingian" power broken in Francia, would the Merovingians manage to take their place and reassert full control?

Didn't the Merovinginas were already powerless? but now there no Pippiniads to usurp them, depends what come next.

Could the Franks still beat the Muslim invasion at TTL Tours?

No, OTL was thanks Charles reforms might stop with him death and Francia in chaos..so Muslim would keep raiding till reaching Marsellaies, that was the original plan

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Didn't the Merovinginas were already powerless? but now there no Pippiniads to usurp them, depends what come next.

Yes and no. The dynasty was definitely in decline from the death of Dagobert I in 639, but there were a few "signs of life" so to speak, sense then. Dagobert II (675-679) and Childebert III (694-711) both come to mind. As for the Pippinaids, that's why I suggested a successful Kenmu restoration as a potential blueprint.

No, OTL was thanks Charles reforms might stop with him death and Francia in chaos..so Muslim would keep raiding till reaching Marsellaies, that was the original plan

OK That doesn't sound right. From what I can find Charles Martel's cavalry reforms only started in 731, a year before the battle: so not enough time for any true impact to be felt at Tours.

 

[Nivek]

OK That doesn't sound right. From what I can find Charles Martel's cavalry reforms only started in 731, a year before the battle: so not enough time for any true impact to be felt at Tours.

IIRC there were like three military reforms, once from his wars against Bavaria, another started just before tours and the 731 one, without Martell, Odo might get scarred and surrender too.

Yes and no. The dynasty was definitely in decline from the death of Dagobert I in 639, but there were a few "signs of life" so to speak, sense then. Dagobert II (675-679) and Childebert III (694-711) both come to mind. As for the Pippinaids, that's why I suggested a successful Kenmu restoration as a potential blueprint.

The thing is...post Peppin I, the Peppiniads already has their sights on being the true throne, Charles just accelerated it, here might be derailed, but if the Merovingians want to survive, the Peppiniads must be purged(ie delenda est)

 

[Emperor Constantine]

IIRC there were like three military reforms, once from his wars against Bavaria, another started just before tours and the 731 one, without Martell, Odo might get scarred and surrender too.

OK my partial mistake. But isn't this assuming that the Merovingians can't produce some reforms on their own, in place of Martel? I mean Chilperic II was a capable military leader, so its just as possible that a longer living Chilperic could take Martel's place for the 718-731 wars and lead the Franks to victory at Tours. It would make the King quite old for a Merovingian (dying around 733-737 would put him in his early sixties) but that would be similar to Charles Martel's possible lifespan (Martel's birth date was anywhere between 676 and 690). I might be handwaving a bit, but I think its certainly possible that the King would have a similar career to his rival if he can live another 10 to 15 years. This would make his (alleged) son Childeric III around 20 when succeeding, so on the young side but that's the same age as Charlemagne and look how he turned out.

The thing is...post Peppin I, the Peppiniads already has their sights on being the true throne, Charles just accelerated it, here might be derailed, but if the Merovingians want to survive, the Peppiniads must be purged(ie delenda est)

Wouldn't they already be (more or less) purged though? With Charles dead in 716 (leaving behind his very young oldest son Carloman and possibly Pepin the Short, both of whom can die in childhood), the only members of the Pippinids left were his nephew Theudoald (imprisoned sense 717 and the fall of Austrasia) and his (half) brother Childebrand (whose center of power was in Burgundy). So the only potential threat is Childebrand, and he's likely to be the next target (taking Burgundy to cement Merovingian control over Francia). We don't know much about him, so he could be a major threat or all in line as the last of-age male in his family.

 

[Nivek]

ouldn't they already be (more or less) purged though? With Charles dead in 716 (leaving behind his very young oldest son Carloman and possibly Pepin the Short, both of whom can die in childhood), the only members of the Pippinids left were his nephew Theudoald (imprisoned sense 717 and the fall of Austrasia) and his (half) brother Childebrand (whose center of power was in Burgundy). So the only potential threat is Childebrand, and he's likely to be the next target (taking Burgundy to cement Merovingian control over Francia). We don't know much about him, so he could be a major threat or all in line as the last of-age male in his family.

Yeah they're a lot of details are still shrouded into popular myth, but depends if they can neutralize Childerbrand(and both Carloman and Pepin 2) them the Merovigeans are free of rivals and might remove the mayor of the palace so they never face a Pippinids-like threat again

But isn't this assuming that the Merovingians can't produce some reforms on their own, in place of Martel? I mean

Dunno, Info about late Merovingians are pretty sparse, especially as a lot was done as pro-Pippinids propaganda, but if later one is very military-minded...Tours would still be a mess....dunno, depends if Odo stay strong or he doesn't decide to betray the Merovingians...dunno could end on a clusterfuck both the invaders and defenders decimated each other

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

Hey all, this is kinda a niche WI, but I'll try to explain as best as I can. So I've recently became interested in the Merovingian dynasty (modern France's first ruling line) and came across something quite interesting to me. Chilperic II was the last of the strong Merovingian rulers (the last that wasn't a complete puppet) and nearly reestablished his dynasty's power in Neustria and Austrasia in the early 8th century, before losing to Charles Martel in a series of battles. The battle that seemed to have been the deciding factor was the Battle of Amblève. Quoting Wikipedia:

"In 716, he (Chilperic) and Ragenfrid together led an army into Austrasia, then being warred over by Plectrude, on behalf of her grandson Theudoald, and Charles Martel, the son of Pepin of Heristal. The Neustrians allied with another invading force under Radbod, King of the Frisians and met Charles in battle near Cologne, then held by Plectrude. Chilperic was victorious and Charles fled to the mountains of the Eifel. The king and his mayor then turned to besiege their other rival in the city. Plectrude acknowledged Chilperic as king, gave over the Austrasian treasury, and abandoned her grandson's claim to the mayoralty.At this juncture, events took a turn against Chilperic. As he and Ragenfrid were leading their triumphant soldiers back to Neustria, Charles fell on them near Malmedy and in the Battle of Amblève, Charles routed them and they fled. Thereafter, Charles Martel remained virtually undefeated and Chilperic's strong will was subdued in a series of campaigns waged in Neustrian territory."

So what if Charles Martel's ambush at Ambléve failed and the would-be Mayor of the Palace was instead killed in battle? With the "Carolingian" power broken in Francia, would the Merovingians manage to take their place and reassert full control? Could the Franks still beat the Muslim invasion at TTL Tours? Or would another Mayoral dynasty take control, and see this Merovingian restoration turn into a Kenmu (aka the failed Japanese Imperial restoration of the 14th century)? @John7755 يوحنا ?

It would depend frankly, I can see it going many ways here. In one sense, the Merovingians would be in a perfect situation to unite their power and begin to purge enemies in the palace, however that may not have ever been the goal, that being total power. The idea of do-nothing kings that were spoken of by the chancery of Charlemagne and his kind tended to give biased interpretations of the Merovingians and also threw into the dirt the many customs, rituals and regality associated with the Frankish kingdom prior to their ascent. The bias and attack on the old Frankish regality was indeed a ploy to one assert a more more clerically linked monarchy that emerged with the Peppinids and also to sanction the rise of a lower clan to supremacy over the Franks as opposed to the true royal lineage of old. Merovingian kings such as Hilperic II while resistant of the power of the Mayors of the Palace, ultimately felt his position good and strong becoming the king an retaining the Peppinids, despite the ability to continue resisting.

For me, the willingness of Merovingian kings to accept their place as king regardless of the Mayor, speaks to the extent of the sacerdotal nature of the king as a symbol of good fortune, divinity and mythical powers. In the sense of his sacredness, the Frankish king was seen as being able to weather any decline in power in their position until, the Pope Zachary moved in and caused division in the mindset of the court and hence prompted the deposition of Childeric III (Hilderic III). In other words, the Merovingians may be able to remain in their sacred do-nothing role (which was actually more intensive than what the Peppinids were doing) and not be harmed if certain conditions are met.

Nevertheless, if Hilperic II defeats Peppinids and crushes their neck in war as opposed to suffering extremely poor luck, I do see the Merovingians regaining more authority and the empowerment of the monarch alongside what sacred roles and powers that the kings still held. Regarding the war against the Umayyad, that is up to luck and the situation of the campaign, but the Merovingians could surely defeat the Umayyad just the same as the Peppinids did, there is nothing inhibiting the Merovingians from military success. Indeed, they could be more effective, the Merovingians have an incredible track record in warfare, better than the Peppinids and their successors, who saw large swathes of the former Merovingian Frankish domain break loose and or stomping grounds of invading Slavs.

 

[AdamNeuser]

It would depend frankly

Good one John. Good one.

 

[The Professor]

Good one John. Good one.

Well pun aside he is right.

It may be simplistic but the Merovingians weren't really set aside until someone with apparent higher sacred/spiritual power was able to "invest" that in the Carolingians who tended to have the political power.
Whether that circumstance is merely postponed until the next powerful palatine with a weak king, or something else depends how Chilperic and his successors consolidate power versus his nobles and anyone made his primary minister.

 

[Nivek]

I wonder if Odo of Aquitane wouldn't try his own usurping after martel is death too