Mercenary-ruled state during the Congo crisis

Anyway a Mercenary ruled state could form out of the Congo during the Congo crisis

How long could such a state survive
 
No logistical support would mean a very short time.

The US along with most of the former Colonial powers of Europe would not support such a state. China and Russia would support the break-away Katanga Province (with the best native troops) to take out the mercs. With arms, money and advisers. Drugs would help too, remember, "Bullets will not touch you!!!", according to the witch doctors.

:):):)

Besides, most of the better mercs tend to go home after their campaign is over. What you have left is the dribs and drabs, the braggarts and incompetents. Who would be the shining star to keep these guttersnipes together? To wield them into a great fighting force? He would have to be politically savvy and/or have great political support as well as a decent supply source.
 
I can see them supporting it in the 70's after Vietnam, using the CIA. With the draw down in SE Asia in the 70's, and the state of the US Army then, that's all they could do.

In the 60's, the US could support by use of transport planes, but mainly for French and Belgium's regular troops. Mercenaries were pretty much the pariah's of Africa, they projected an outmoded image reminiscent of South Africa and apartheid. Possibly minor powers could support with money, countries like Portugal.

Possibly.....

But then again in the 70's you had lots of Russian and Chinese support including money and weapons. Plus they sent over their own "mercs", thousands of trained Cuban troops. Which put paid to the mercs they faced in Angola at least. Not enough heavy weapons for the FNLA or UNITA from the West, even South Africa didn't want to stay in there for fear of incurring high casualties when they finally bumped into the Cubans.

A mercenary state would have to fight a conventional war with conventional forces, IMHO to survive and try to be legitimate to the eyes of the world. And that would generate lots of unconventional attacks, at least at first, to destabilize them.

Thinking out loud here!

:cool:
 
There are easier places arguably to have a mercenary state in this era. The Comoros come to mind. But even then, why would other countries tolerate it?
 
Oh there were several attempts
Sponsored by Belgium Socialist, Union Miner and Other Belgium industrials
Mainly to get area Katanga under there Control
a very short time effort do lack of large logistical support
like Simbas uprise in east Congo

Next to that CIA was operative in Congo and had there Man, Mobutu Sese Seko
and CIA had better logistical support compare to Belgiums privateers...
 

Md139115

Banned
It depends on the capabilities of the mercenaries. If they are standard Western PMC’s, not a chance. If, however, they’re a deliberately lower tech outfit that has been investing in the tooling and other such capabilities to produce their own weapons and ammunition, then things get interesting...
 
If you write them up like a mini South Africa or mini Rhodesia,

Who had to go around world wide, mainstream embargos to get any kind of supplies,

Then they could have a chance. South Africa managed to update their WW2 tanks, their artillery ended up being produced at home, as well as many APC's and troop carriers. They had some support from Israel, another outcast state.

If you could build an arsenal to produce at least small arms, ammunition and maybe crew served weapons, those might give you a leg up on the local third rate forces. It's when you get into the heavy weapons you get into trouble. Even Soviet Bloc artillery and tanks, below US and NATO standards, would be decisive in an African setting against someone who has none. You have to figure in logistical and engineering support also, if you have no ammunition or no way to get it to the troops, you're done then too. Folks often forget there is a tail which wags the dog.

REMF's do have a purpose!

Which front line pukes often forget!

;)
 
Anyway a Mercenary ruled state could form out of the Congo during the Congo crisis

How long could such a state survive
Probably not long. I just don't see the international community being happy about a state being overtly taken over or established by Mercenaries. I can't see this being allowed to continue.
 
The US along with most of the former Colonial powers of Europe would not support such a state.

I don't see why they wouldn't when they supported Katanga OTL, and Katanga's military was very, very dependent upon Belgian mercenaries. The US, UK and Belgium all supported Katanga nonetheless, and even cooperated in attempts to assasinate Lumumba, the President of the Congo. So there is OTL precedent for the colonial powers of Europe not only tolerating but supporting mercenaries running around in the Congo. In order to make Katanga a mercenary ruled state, you could just have Katanga successfully become independent and then have a military coup on the part of the suddenly unemployed and disgruntled mercenaries. Belgium would likely support such a coup, since as I mentioned previously many of the mercenaries were Belgian.

Drugs would help too, remember, "Bullets will not touch you!!!", according to the witch doctors.

You really shouldn't call Congolese clergy "witch doctors," as that's not what they call themselves in any of the local languages and it's actually quite a stereotypical phrase.
 
I don't see why they wouldn't when they supported Katanga OTL, and Katanga's military was very, very dependent upon Belgian mercenaries. The US, UK and Belgium all supported Katanga nonetheless, and even cooperated in attempts to assasinate Lumumba, the President of the Congo. So there is OTL precedent for the colonial powers of Europe not only tolerating but supporting mercenaries running around in the Congo. In order to make Katanga a mercenary ruled state, you could just have Katanga successfully become independent and then have a military coup on the part of the suddenly unemployed and disgruntled mercenaries. Belgium would likely support such a coup, since as I mentioned previously many of the mercenaries were Belgian.



You really shouldn't call Congolese clergy "witch doctors," as that's not what they call themselves in any of the local languages and it's actually quite a stereotypical phrase.
IMHO a state that is supported / propped up or what ever by Foreign Mercenaries is fundamentally different than a state that is founded / taken over or established or what ever by Foreign Mercenaries.

IMHO the former may well be tolerated by some nation states but I can't see the latter situation being accepted.
 
I'll be sure to let the BBC know.....as well as the Red Cross and Tanzanian government.

"BBC News reported, on March 12, 2015, that, "More than 200 witchdoctors and traditional healers have been arrested in Tanzania in a crackdown on the murder of albino people. The killings have been driven by the belief – advanced by some witchdoctors – that the body parts have properties that confer wealth and good luck. According to the Red Cross, witchdoctors are prepared to pay $75,000 (£50,000) for a complete set of albino body parts. Nearly 80 albino Tanzanians have been killed since 2000, the UN says. The latest victims include a one-year-old albino boy, killed in north-western Tanzania. The government banned witchdoctors in January as part of its efforts to prevent further attacks and kidnappings targeting people with albinism."

Call them what you want, I'll call them what I want. The phrase has been around how long?

Thanks for your response!

:)
 
Anyway a Mercenary ruled state could form out of the Congo during the Congo crisis

How long could such a state survive
What do you mean by "mercenary state"?
Mercenry Dictionary Definiton.PNG

State: A nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government.

Do you mean a state that works solely for pay? How would that work? How would this mercenary state reproduce itself?

Or do you imagine a mercenary state to be ruled as such behind the scenes?

Who would the mercenaries be? Could they be local mercenaries or are you refering to mercenaries from the west? I assume that local mercenaries taking control would lead to less media attention, and have a easier time being accepted by others as they would be considered local. While if it is european mercenaries some might connect it to colonialism. Colonialism in the 60s was getting political and academic condemnation during this time period, which i doubt is a plus if you want to establish a state.

How would citizenship function in such a state? Would locals get citizenship automatically or would they have to apply?
 
I don't see why they wouldn't when they supported Katanga OTL, and Katanga's military was very, very dependent upon Belgian mercenaries. The US, UK and Belgium all supported Katanga nonetheless, and even cooperated in attempts to assasinate Lumumba, the President of the Congo. So there is OTL precedent for the colonial powers of Europe not only tolerating but supporting mercenaries running around in the Congo. In order to make Katanga a mercenary ruled state, you could just have Katanga successfully become independent and then have a military coup on the part of the suddenly unemployed and disgruntled mercenaries. Belgium would likely support such a coup, since as I mentioned previously many of the mercenaries were Belgian.



You really shouldn't call Congolese clergy "witch doctors," as that's not what they call themselves in any of the local languages and it's actually quite a stereotypical phrase.
Why should Belgium be supportive of such a coup just becouse the people executing the coup are Belgian?
 
Why should Belgium be supportive of such a coup just becouse the people executing the coup are Belgian?

Because the Belgian government supported them OTL? The Belgian government was actively involved in propping up Katanga and destabilizing the Congo so that they could continue to access the rich mineral deposits of Katanga.
 
I'll be sure to let the BBC know.....as well as the Red Cross and Tanzanian government.

"BBC News reported, on March 12, 2015, that, "More than 200 witchdoctors and traditional healers have been arrested in Tanzania in a crackdown on the murder of albino people. The killings have been driven by the belief – advanced by some witchdoctors – that the body parts have properties that confer wealth and good luck. According to the Red Cross, witchdoctors are prepared to pay $75,000 (£50,000) for a complete set of albino body parts. Nearly 80 albino Tanzanians have been killed since 2000, the UN says. The latest victims include a one-year-old albino boy, killed in north-western Tanzania. The government banned witchdoctors in January as part of its efforts to prevent further attacks and kidnappings targeting people with albinism."

Call them what you want, I'll call them what I want. The phrase has been around how long?

Thanks for your response!

:)

We're speaking of the Congo, not Tanzania, which is a different country on the same continent. Not to mention I wouldn't say the BBC (British Broadcasting Organization) is exactly the best source when it comes to accurately translating indigenous endonyms. The phrase has been around since around 1718 but that doesn't make it any more accurate for actually describing African religions. You may as well call Christian priests imams.
 
Do you mean a state that works solely for pay? How would that work? How would this mercenary state reproduce itself?
An area ruled by a western mercenaries either as a group or one person de facto and de jure. I thinking along the lines of a modern-day Catalan company or Normans or Mamluks

Who would the mercenaries be? Could they be local mercenaries or are you refering to mercenaries from the west?
Lead by western mercenaries and can include locals

How would citizenship function in such a state? Would locals get citizenship automatically or would they have to apply?
Automatically or by military service
 
Because the Belgian government supported them OTL? The Belgian government was actively involved in propping up Katanga and destabilizing the Congo so that they could continue to access the rich mineral deposits of Katanga.
Belgium did support Belgian mercenaries in Katanga that is correct, but not becouse they were Belgian.
 
An area ruled by a western mercenaries either as a group or one person de facto and de jure. I thinking along the lines of a modern-day Catalan company or Normans or Mamluks


Lead by western mercenaries and can include locals


Automatically or by military service
Maybe some sort of neo-feudal state could be established?
 
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