memorials in a confederacy that survived

samcster94

Banned
If the Confederacy survived, what kind of monuments would be built??? The discussion can discuss Confederate holidays, but cannot discuss any event outside the 19th century. The monuments can be as grim, depressing and racist as you want. Also, please remember the Confederacy was a racist, slaveowning power that wanted to annex more territory, and this Confederacy has to keep slavery legal(and call it by that name).
 
I imagine they would avoid showing or mentioning non-Whites. For the begining the monuments would probably focus on officers unless funded by the state government, in which case it glorifies the state itself. And I don't see why the Cofederates would refer to slavery on monuments by that word, since they went to a lot of lengths not refering to it in US history and law. Heck, they had that gag Orde rin Congress to prevent it even being discussed. I would say that you end up with monuments much like you do IOTL, funded by local groups. Though you may well end up with very few, if they somehow curb stomp the Union or get recognition of independence early on. Then you don't have all those battles the Union won as it marched through the Siuth to vilify, or the massacres of Freedmen and Republicans to make monuments glorifying. Yah, they still have more than a few of those. Even have the word Negroes on them. And since there is to be no mention of things after 1900, that only leaves four decades in which to come up with excuses to make monuments.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
A minor point in my novella Blessed are the Peacemakers was that the peace treaty allowed the United States to maintain memorials to its own war dead on the battlefields in the Confederacy.

IOTL, Confederate memorials have the stigma of defeat attached to them. The DOC or SCV or whatever group first established them phrased the engravings with such words as "died in defense of our rights" or some such thing. In a CS Victory TL, the wording would be more akin to Revolutionary memorials, with such wording as "died to secure Southern independence" or whatever else.
 
I think it's worth noting that during the war Confederate soldiers were not given individual medals or awards, as they felt everyone was a hero fighting for the revolution and that singling someone out would harm morale. Sounds rather communist, but in any case I think war memorials would be dedicated to local units, obviously some statues of some of the top generals as well. Not sure if they'd go in for something like OTL's Stone Mountain, that had the whole martyrdom narrative going for it.
 
They'd build less memorials than the OTL South did. As the New South system failed to live up to its promises and the Populist Party and GOP threatened in some states, there was a massive spate of Civil War-related monument building throughout the South from 1895-1915. On the other hand, that was also the era when Civil War veterans were starting to die off in large numbers and a new generation had reached adulthood with no memory of the war. The point was to remind people of the Lost Cause.

I could see the ruling classes of the CSA having a similar crisis in the 1890s and doing the same.

But the only openly racist memorials (as in, not just devoted to a racist i.e. OTL's Nathan Bedford Forrest memorials) might as well be ones which glorify people putting down slave revolts.
 
Whatever monuments there are will occasionally get blown up by slave revolts, and I suspect that, if there's another war, any monuments in occupied territories will be used as target practice by American forces when the occupy Rebel towns and cities.
 
If the Confederacy survived, what kind of monuments would be built??? The discussion can discuss Confederate holidays, but cannot discuss any event outside the 19th century. The monuments can be as grim, depressing and racist as you want. Also, please remember the Confederacy was a racist, slaveowning power that wanted to annex more territory, and this Confederacy has to keep slavery legal(and call it by that name).
Maybe a monument for filibuster William Walker as a symbol for Southern expansion ambitions and reenslaving of African populations in South America ?
 

samcster94

Banned
Maybe a monument for filibuster William Walker as a symbol for Southern expansion ambitions and reenslaving of African populations in South America ?
Yes, that sounds like something I'd definitely could see. Also, 35 years is enough time to build some memorials, especially ones with a distorted view of George Washington(the Confederates saw him as one of their own, as he obviously owned slaves, but he was against the idea of secession and also wanted his slaves freed in his will{an idea more unthinkable in the Confederacy than being an open Communist in 1962 Texas} ).
 
A giant statue of a men heading off to work in honor of the glorious worker's revolution.
The Confederacy was ruled by a small group of self styled nobility with delusions of grandeur, they'd be extremely vulnerable to a workers Revolution.
 
For the standard triumphant ones in Richmond? Lots of statues of men on horses. If you've ever been to DC, think about all the statues of Union officers. For battlefields, you'd have some that look like Gettysburg OTL (covered in monuments). Not just generals; I'd expect some prominent politicians as well.

You might also see something like the standard monumental lists of all the people from a given town/university who died in the war, sort of like what was commonly done in WWI/II.

There would also be the issue of the shared heritage with the US and the American Revolution; it would be interesting to see how the centennial of the Declaration of Independence would be celebrated in 1876. There was definitely a strand of thought that considered the Confederates to be continuing the Revolution of Washington/Jefferson/etc., this might be emphasized (with lots of speeches by Civil War heroes at various celebrations). Alternatively, you might have an effort to reconcile with the US and emphasize joint celebrations (although that will depend on how messy the war goes; if it's anywhere near as bloody as OTL, 1876 might be too soon for a reconciliation), or downplay it in favor of a new Southern identity.

As noted above, a lot of the OTL Confederate monuments were attempts to whitewash the Confederate cause, and tied to the growth of Jim Crow/destruction of the last vestiges of Reconstruction (e.g. the Wilmington Insurrection of 1898). A victorious Confederacy has no need for such, but does have other political issues to consider. OTL the Grand Army of the Republic was the main sponsor of a lot of the local pro-Union monuments in the 19th century, and also acted as a de facto arm of the Republican Party, keeping alive the memory of Lincoln and the Republican Party as defenders of the Republic (and conversely the Democrats as the party of "Rum, Romanism and Rebellion"); if the post-war Confederacy develops a similar political divide between a party more associated with the Confederate Army and a party with significant levels of former Unionist support, you might see something similar.
 
A giant statue of a men heading off to work in honor of the glorious worker's revolution.
The Confederacy was ruled by a small group of self styled nobility with delusions of grandeur, they'd be extremely vulnerable to a workers Revolution.
They had little industry.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
The Confederacy was ruled by a small group of self styled nobility with delusions of grandeur, they'd be extremely vulnerable to a workers Revolution.

How many "worker's revolutions" had there been between 1619 and 1861?

Oh yeah. . . absolutely none.
 
There probably won't be too many statues of generals and such; they usually have to be safely dead before statues are erected--though not always. Any killed in glorious battle, or treacherously slain by servile insurrection, of course, will get statues.

The North's monuments will be interesting as well. Generals who fell against overwhelming odds, of course, and Colored Troops massacred will get memorials. I can see, at border crossings, deliberately insulting monuments; I don't think the United States will be quick to forgive. Even if the official border crossings need to be restrained, states will put up their own.

Stealing from Turtledove, I could see statues of Remembrance going up.

I bet there would be statues of John Brown, too!
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I can see, at border crossings, deliberately insulting monuments; I don't think the United States will be quick to forgive. Even if the official border crossings need to be restrained, states will put up their own.

Were any such monuments ever put up on the American-Canadian border?
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Feelings were much harsher after the Civil War, and probably would be in this timeline, too. I'd expect a few.

What makes you think they were much more harsh? The American Loyalists who fled to Canada were pretty freaking bitter, if their letters and diaries are any indication.
 

samcster94

Banned
There probably won't be too many statues of generals and such; they usually have to be safely dead before statues are erected--though not always. Any killed in glorious battle, or treacherously slain by servile insurrection, of course, will get statues.

The North's monuments will be interesting as well. Generals who fell against overwhelming odds, of course, and Colored Troops massacred will get memorials. I can see, at border crossings, deliberately insulting monuments; I don't think the United States will be quick to forgive. Even if the official border crossings need to be restrained, states will put up their own.

Stealing from Turtledove, I could see statues of Remembrance going up.

I bet there would be statues of John Brown, too!
I can imagine a statue that insults Lincoln as an ape being made.
 
If the Confederacy survived, what kind of monuments would be built??? The discussion can discuss Confederate holidays, but cannot discuss any event outside the 19th century. The monuments can be as grim, depressing and racist as you want. Also, please remember the Confederacy was a racist, slaveowning power that wanted to annex more territory, and this Confederacy has to keep slavery legal(and call it by that name).

Nothing that different from those existing today in most of Dixie.
 
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