Meiji-style Inca Empire

Isn't industrialization premature? We're really thinking about a state which adopts metallurgy, writing, and maybe gunpowder; a Congo in the Andes.

Agreed; everyone ITT seems to be jumping way ahead of themselves.

They already had metallurgy (bronze) and sort-of writing (interaction with the Spanish might inspire the to develop their own full writing system from quipu or simply adopt the Latin alphabet.) The centralized nature of the state allows reforms to be easily propagated throughout the empire if a ruler so chooses. Indeed, the decentralization of Japan was one of the main things Meiji had to fight against.

Yes, but 'pulling a Meiji' in the 14th century means gaining steel and guns, not gunboats and telegraphs. Comparisons to Japan are rather far off the mark; Faeelin was quite correct in saying a 'Kongo of the Andes' would be more accurate.

It would also be interesting to see how the Incans, or whatever their name of their nationstate will become, effect the writings of Marx and Engels. As such a large "pre-capitalist" society that is still surviving would be worth mentioning, even as declining. It would probably spark as if not larger migration of social conscious workers to South America from Europe in order to cue up to take part in the few remaining civilizations centered around communal sharing.

It would also be interesting to see how IOTL's socialism develops in a timeline with a POD at least as far back as the 14th century, if not even earlier, and the subsequent four centuries of butterflies, or even more.

Discussions of industrial socialism is wildly premature considering the Inka will be lucky to survive another few decades over IOTL.

That is indeed a problem. Maybe a person-to-person transmitted cowpox?

I'm not sure how this solves the issue. Smallpox wasn't the only major disease the Europeans introduced to the Americas, by far. You'd still need to find a POD, or several, to prevent or limit the impact of bubonic plague, chicken pox, cholera, influenza, leprosy, malaria, measles, whooping cough, scarlet fever, typhoid, typhus, yellow fever, and yaws.
 
What my question really meant was could the Inca state have survived for centuries, and if it did would it have had the where-withal to modernise to sufficient standards in the later 19th century so as to be recognised as a power. The first part of the question is more or less asking whether the Inca state would have been stable enough to have longevity. For example, I do not believe the Aztec state would have been since it was just the most recent of the overlords from among the surrounding peoples imposing their will on the rest. The Incas may have been viewed differently and whilst multi-ethnic by our way of thinking, the other ethnicities may have been happy enough being Inca subjects.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Think Big, yet specific

It would also be interesting to see how IOTL's socialism develops in a timeline with a POD at least as far back as the 14th century, if not even earlier, and the subsequent four centuries of butterflies, or even more.

Discussions of industrial socialism is wildly premature considering the Inka will be lucky to survive another few decades over IOTL.

I'm simply stating such works in western Europe stemmed from how more cultures were exposed around the world along with a cynism towards there being benefits from imperialism, conquest and increased pace of scientific progress. Most of the comparison works on ancient Incan culture to socialism have not come out until the 20th century because of their early demise it was hard to research which most contemporary historians found irrelivant beyond anthropology and horticulture. Even its survival for a decade longer with moderate contact and trade with one of the European powers would have a profound impact on how the history of the Andes and its people are taken in early on.

Marx and Engels basis for communism was not only around the overthrow of bourgeois society and worker controlled means of production but also a percieved back to basics he noted on his works on Pre-Capitalist Economic Formations. One of the things he noted was the notion of private property and products having indepenent value of those who produce it. By all accounts of the above Incan society for most of its subject was the antithesis of that. Their continued existence and extended contact would certainly get, if not Marx and Engels, other European academics thinking on notions of alternative government once the Age of Enlightenment comes around. It would take a lot of butterflies to change that.
 
The Incans have a good possibility of holding out against Europeans for a long time, due to exceptionally defensible territory.

Well, they collapsed in OTL extremely quickly, so...

;)

Also, the centralized structure could work in their favor, a single ruler who decided that European knowledge of wars and metals were worth assimilating could help considerably. I expect conversion would happen, back then you'd have christianity arrive with pretty much any cultural exchange.

Wouldn't converting entail some issues for someone who is ostensibly divine?
 
What my question really meant was could the Inca state have survived for centuries,

The consensus on this board seems to generally be yes, though IMO it would take a little more luck than other people generally say it would. Even removing a European military invasion, avoiding collapse from disease and the internal strife and existential crises epidemics provoked could be tough.

and if it did would it have had the where-withal to modernise to sufficient standards in the later 19th century so as to be recognised as a power.

We've already shown the changes that would be necessary. The question is, would they want to be recognized as a power in the 19th century, or would they be happy just resisting colonialism?

The Incas may have been viewed differently and whilst multi-ethnic by our way of thinking, the other ethnicities may have been happy enough being Inca subjects.

Kind of varied depending on time and place, but the Spanish managed to find quite a few allies against the Incas-including political factions within the Incan royal family itself. The Incas could be as nasty to their subjects as any European power when provoked. It's impossible to become an empire without giving your subjects a good reason to revolt against you, it's inevitable that you're going to piss someone off.
 
It would also be interesting to see how the Incans, or whatever their name of their nationstate will become, effect the writings of Marx and Engels. As such a large "pre-capitalist" society that is still surviving would be worth mentioning, even as declining. It would probably spark as if not larger migration of social conscious workers to South America from Europe in order to cue up to take part in the few remaining civilizations centered around communal sharing.
Well, the Tihuantinsuyu economy was less about 'communal sharing' and more about 'The Inca is divine, so he should own everything'. This is one reason the comparisons to Stalinism are apt. It would be better to describe it as 'Beyond Absolute Monarchy' than 'hippy commune'. Here's a good description:
The state also undertook a number of government projects to develop the empire. These projects used labor drawn from conquered populations in the form of a special tax called the mita. The mita was a labor tax on male citizens of the empire, which required them to serve an work projects for a specific period of time each year. Entire cities were sometimes built to house the work forces who were fed by the state during their mita tenure. Bridges, temples, agricultural developments, roads, and government buildings were all built through this system of taxation.

The empire was linked by a vast road network which ran and the coast, with smaller roads linking small towns and communities to the main thoroughfares. The construction of roads was a tradition which had begun before the Inca. Along the roads were way stations, maintained by towns and villages for the state, where official travelers and messengers could find lodging and food. Over the road traveled mita laborers, llama caravans carrying goods for state warehouses, and the imperial armies. Since wheeled vehicles were unknown in the Andes, the roads sometimes made steep, stepped ascents and descents along mountain ridges and through valleys. The road system linked modern Ecuador with the northwest of Argentina. The roads centered on Cuzco and ran out to the four provinces of the empire.

From Cuzco a corps of Inca bureaucrats managed the empire and kept tally of its population and wealth. One third of the lands of subject communities was the property of the ruler (called the Inca) and his family. The crops produced by these lands were stored in large warehouses that can still be seen standing along the flanks of valleys. From these warehouses, food to feed the mita laborers and wool to clothe the empire were drawn. Each family in the empire was theoretically due a yearly ration of wool from the state. The foodstuffs collected in the warehouses also fed the empire's bureaucrats and artisans and provided communities with food during periods of famine.

Metalsmiths, textile workers, potters and other artisans in Cuzco were frequently state employees and were housed, fed, and clothed by the state. Craftsmen and women manufactured a variety of goods for the state. Bronze tools and gold and silver objects were manufactured in great numbers. The practice of metalworking was widespread throughout Andean America. Gold and silver objects have been found in very old sites, frequently in the burials of the elite. Copper and later bronze were used to manufacture tools, weapons, and decorative objects.

As this quote shows, they had a pretty extensive bureaucracy; they couldn't have run the empire without it.
 
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Wouldn't converting entail some issues for someone who is ostensibly divine?

Yeah, I'm not sure that would fly. The Sapa Inca's entire legitimation was his divine status as child of the sun, which entitled him to treat the Empire as his property. I think he would see Christianity as threat.

The veneration of the Inca was taken to some ridiculous heights. The Inca employed servants to collect hairs that fell from his head, for veneration. One of the reasons the empire collapsed was that when Atahualpa was kidnapped by Pizarro, the Inca bureaucracy suffered a sort of collective BSOD. Commoners weren't supposed to even touch the Inca, so seeing him get kidnapped by dirty foreigners caused them to freak out a bit. And since all orders flowed from the Sapa Inca, the bureaucracy was utterly paralyzed.Interestingly enough, it was decentralization that brought down the Aztecs and centralization that brought down the Tihuantinsuyu.
 
I'm not sure how this solves the issue. Smallpox wasn't the only major disease the Europeans introduced to the Americas, by far. You'd still need to find a POD, or several, to prevent or limit the impact of bubonic plague, chicken pox, cholera, influenza, leprosy, malaria, measles, whooping cough, scarlet fever, typhoid, typhus, yellow fever, and yaws.

It does not remove the problem, but it mitigates it considerably. The lethality of Smallpox in a virgin field was as far as I nknow far higher than any other disease. Mortality estimates range from 40% for the Aztecs, all the way up to 100 % for the Taino. Most peoples had over 50 %.

Measles in a virgin field ran about 25 % in Fiji in the 1870s. Bacterial dysentry had a 2,5 % mortality in a well-fed population in New Guinea, increasing to 30 % when it hit stressed, poor-nutrition populations.

The Black Death did about 33% in Europe, plus recurrences. I have no idea of chickenpox mortality in a virgin field, but about 1/3 seem to be the normal rate.

However, the problem isn't as bad as the disease list makes out. Cholera, typhoid and most often dysentry is transmitted by infected watersupplies. Malaria and yellow fever by mosquitoes. Typhus and bubonic plague prefer rats and lice to spread. The conditions in the Andes are not ideal for many of these.

Leprosy and yaws are too slow-developing to cause a collapse.

The upshot is, prevent or blunt smallpox, and the mortality of the Incas drop significantly.

Well, they collapsed in OTL extremely quickly, so....

Yes, but as it was pointed out, that was rather flukey. A small banEuropeans managing to capture one of the contenders in the middle of a smallpox induced civil war.

Wouldn't converting entail some issues for someone who is ostensibly divine?

That is a very good point! A complete resistance to christianity is going to make any kind of absorption of knowledge from the Europeans very difficult.

The consensus on this board seems to generally be yes, though IMO it would take a little more luck than other people generally say it would. Even removing a European military invasion, avoiding collapse from disease and the internal strife and existential crises epidemics provoked could be tough.

It is worth noting that they had enough internal coherence to run a civil war in the middle of a smallpox epidemic.

As this quote shows, they had a pretty extensive bureaucracy; they couldn't have run the empire without it.

This makes it sound like they'd really take to writing and the alphabet! Much like plains indians took to horses, it would fill a need.
 
This makes it sound like they'd really take to writing and the alphabet! Much like plains indians took to horses, it would fill a need.
Umm... Maybe. Bureaucracy needs record keeping, and quipu do very well for that. They are totally useless for writing poetry or historical epics, but for determining who's paid tax this year and what the inventory of supplies are (which are the biggest needs of a bureaucracy), they do just fine.

Sure, a written language would help, but it wouldn't make as big a change to the bureaucracy as you'd think. IMO.
 
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