Meiji Restoration-like reforms in an Indian kingdom

Well yes, I have said that almost essential for mysorean geopolitical supremacy is the Carnatic and kicking the British out of Madras, which otl they very much proved they had the ability to. The Vijayanagara example also works even if Mysore doesn't have Kerala because the region was effectively independent from Vijayanagara, only bound by loose tributary relations.



Amphibious operations are essentially impossible, so European naval supremacy doesn't touch the land based state, and European trained armies on the mainland can be dealt with by Mysores modernising military, as shown otl.
Well I agree with your first point, They would atleast need to eatablish supremacy in Deccan to be considered powerful

Amphibious assaults are hard, but not impossible, and this is at the start of European imperialism in India, Europe would have all the advantges to India in terms of navy, unless Mysore produces a defensive navy, They would be screwed European navies
 
I dispute this as well in the strongest terms. At most, a pan Indian international states system which requires Indian governments being puppeted by Europeans as illegitimate is required, which is miles away from a pan European alliance and much much more achievable.
Pan Indian alliance would not be directed towards Europe, but towards curbing wars and conflicts between Indian states and the create a stable system of order in subcontinent without which it would be a matter of time before subcontinent implodes into war
 
Well I agree with your first point, They would atleast need to eatablish supremacy in Deccan to be considered powerful
That's not my point at all, they need to avoid expansion into the deccan like the plague, focusing entirely on their eastern border.


create a stable system of order
What you're looking for is not an alliance then, it's a Treaty of Westphalia/Congress of Vienna. This is so much much more achievable than unification and a lot less destructive.
 
That's not my point at all, they need to avoid expansion into the deccan like the plague, focusing entirely on their eastern border.
Establishing supremacy over Deccan and outright annexing Deccan are two different things all together

What you're looking for is not an alliance then, it's a Treaty of Westphalia/Congress of Vienna. This is so much much more achievable than unification and a lot less destructive.
Congress of Kolkata perhaps ?, but it needs to be much stronger and more enforceable than Congress of Vienna as Congress of Vienna did fail, and did not really protect Europeans from warfare, especially after Prussia's rise,

This also being the question, how likely is a Sikh Empire going to dominate north west subcontinent without British interference
 
Establishing supremacy over Deccan and outright annexing Deccan are two different things all together
Fine, establishing supremacy over the Deccan is what tore Vijayanagara apart. They presumed they could dictate a peace between the Sultanates and inspired resentment that lead to everyone ganging up on them.


Congress of Vienna did fail, and did not really protect Europeans from warfare
My point is that if Europe can do it, there's nothing stopping India from creating a balance of power regulated by congresses and international treaties. Perhaps Delhi would even be a good place for this as neutral ground, as long as the Emperor remains militarily weak and unable to control the proceedings. It's centrally placed, treaties negotiated in the centre of the old empire and endorsed by the moral weight of the Mughal emperor will be more lasting. After all, if there was anything approximating an international states system in 18th century India it was the way states related to the framework of the Mughal Empire.
 
Fine, establishing supremacy over the Deccan is what tore Vijayanagara apart. They presumed they could dictate a peace between the Sultanates and inspired resentment that lead to everyone ganging up on them.
Well that is a bit true, however, it is in Mysore geopolitical interest to do so to avoid being cornered geographically

My point is that if Europe can do it, there's nothing stopping India from creating a balance of power regulated by congresses and international treaties. Perhaps Delhi would even be a good place for this as neutral ground, as long as the Emperor remains militarily weak and unable to control the proceedings. It's centrally placed, treaties negotiated in the centre of the old empire and endorsed by the moral weight of the Mughal emperor will be more lasting. After all, if there was anything approximating an international states system in 18th century India it was the way states related to the framework of the Mughal Empire.
Well I agree to it, A balance of power and trade agreements between the powers of subcontinent, if this happens, again, hard but not impossible to achieve, you will have various Indian states pulling a meiji
 
1- Maratha state was a centralised state if you left vessels Rajput state and the lone Bhonsle state of Tanjore.
How I am saying it, with weakness of central authority of Peshwa of Pune ( which happen due to staining of kin slaying by Raghunath bhau) at the start of 19 century British easily defeated Peshwa at the Bhima Koregaon(near Pune) and the defeat of second faction Holkar at Battle of Mahidpur by treachery, collapsed Maratha power and whole government secede to British in 1 year. Where Maratha casualty only was around 5000.
It is nature of the centralised state to defeated in a single year, not the decentralised state.
2- Maratha defeat occur due to moral loses in the office of Peshwa. when kin-slayer son come to the office. Maratha chieftain tries to snatch the power from Peshwa to the chieftain council. But the death of almost all member of reagent council between 1792-1800 created a vacuum in Pune.
To profit from it disgrace Peshwai asked for help from the British in 1802 to gain snatch power from his chieftain, also he creates disharmony between chieftain council.

3- Why I think a major restoration occur in Japan due to the godly nature of its emperor and trust in the authority of the emperor. Which can't happen in India.

4- yes an industrial revolution in India you have to go for Maratha, first condition Maratha win in the battle of Panipat, or Bajirao live for. Another 25-30 years.
Raghunath bhau happen to be of man of Honours.

5-https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhavrao_I or Madhavrao live for another 40 years , the last peshwa.
 
I got the idea from this thread.

Could Hyder Ali conquer and keep Madras from being retaken by the British if he goes for the jugular right after Pollilur? Could a more successful admiral Suffren (who fought a bunch of indecisive naval battles in South India) help him?
I repeat my question to @Madhav Deval, but now with an addition: Assuming Hyder Ali/Tipu Sultan don't take Madras right after Pollilur, could they have defeated Eyre Coote (who defeated Mysore in three consecutive battles, the first of them despite being outnumbered five to one)? If that's not possible, could he suffer the stroke that killed him three or four years earlier?
 
I repeat my question to @Madhav Deval, but now with an addition: Assuming Hyder Ali/Tipu Sultan don't take Madras right after Pollilur, could they have defeated Eyre Coote (who defeated Mysore in three consecutive battles, the first of them despite being outnumbered five to one)? If that's not possible, could he suffer the stroke that killed him three or four years earlier?
This is alternate history- when it comes to illnesses and accidental death, there's a world of freedom. It would however be most beneficial for them to simply take Madras right after Polliur and press their advantage.
 

Ficboy

Banned
The biggest advantage for why Japan was able to implement the Meiji Reformation and Westernization was that they were isolated for 214 years from 1633 until 1853 when Matthew Perry used his steamboats to open the country and get them to sign the Treaty of Kanagawa. Not to mention, Japan was an island nation separated from any continent and thus very much impossible for any European nation to colonize. That's why Japan quickly rose and became a colonial empire on par with the European powers between 1890s-1940s.

The Indian kingdoms don't have any of the advantages afforded to Japan. So getting one Indian state to modernize and westernize is very difficult to even do let alone accomplish especially with the British around.
 
Would it even be possible given the divided nature of Indian society acting as an incentive to block economic progress?

Yes, India's economy is growing _now_ but being conquered and ruled for something like 200 years will make old institutions look bad.
 
The Indian kingdoms don't have any of the advantages afforded to Japan. So getting one Indian state to modernize and westernize is very difficult to even do let alone accomplish especially with the British around.
The fact that Indian kingdoms enthusiastically adopted European technology where it was useful and threw themselves into modernisation of fiscal and administrative structures in the competitive atmosphere of the 18th century gives the lie to this, for the 18th century the British were at most one of many competing and essentially evenly matched players of whom anyone could have made it.


Would it even be possible given the divided nature of Indian society acting as an incentive to block economic progress?
In short yes. Wages for labour in South India were often as high as core regions of Europe and it had a massive service industry, surpassing many places in Europe, one of the people who has done the most work showing this is David Washbrook. Japanese society was also incredibly divided on class basis and so was European really. The 19th century saw the creation of much more solid hierarchies as population increase and forced peasantisation increase competition for land and resources. In short the divided nature of Indian society has been projected backwards onto early modern India when in truth it is in many ways a colonial creation.
 
Bengal I would nominate. There was a time when they were already proto-industrial; they had a burgeoning economy.
 
In short yes. Wages for labour in South India were often as high as core regions of Europe and it had a massive service industry, surpassing many places in Europe, one of the people who has done the most work showing this is David Washbrook. Japanese society was also incredibly divided on class basis and so was European really. The 19th century saw the creation of much more solid hierarchies as population increase and forced peasantisation increase competition for land and resources. In short the divided nature of Indian society has been projected backwards onto early modern India when in truth it is in many ways a colonial creation.
Japan and Europe were highly unequal but lacked caste-related barrieirs against real change. I wasn't thinking overly powerful elites but say various castes using their traditional roles to block social/economic changes that might say drop their wages. Basically the kind of strangling net of endless minor petty traditional rules blocking change like what Mancur Olson's noticed in his work. We've seen setbacks of industrialization in societies that only had strong landlords and not a 3000+ year old caste system, Your "Wages for labour in South India were often as high as core regions of Europe and it had a massive service industry" indicates two things 1) Ability of castes to prevent competition that'd force efficiency and/or lower wages 2) India's social model not being a barrier to making it up to the advanced preindustrial level on it's own.
 

Ficboy

Banned
Elaborate. WHY was it an advantage?


Indonesia
Philippines
Sri Lanka
etc.
Although Japan was isolated for 214 years they did have friendly trade relations with the Dutch through the trading post of Dejima and thus allowed Western technology to spread a bit through the country. Compared to those nations, Japan was the furthest away from any nearby country and it already had fended off an invasion by the Mongols.
 
Again, the Sikh Empire could have done so if the succession of Ranjit Singh was not so muddled. Especially if his grandson survived, Nau Nihal Singh, who was reputed to be an able administrator and fierce warrior. He was probably one of the only competent heirs at that time, even more so than his father and many cousins who were all drug addicts, politically incompetent or working to destroy the government.
 
Again, the Sikh Empire could have done so if the succession of Ranjit Singh was not so muddled. Especially if his grandson survived, Nau Nihal Singh, who was reputed to be an able administrator and fierce warrior. He was probably one of the only competent heirs at that time, even more so than his father and many cousins who were all drug addicts, politically incompetent or working to destroy the government.
Yeah, if I remember correctly the only reason the Sikh were defeated by the British was because the generals who led them actually wanted to lose. Could Nau Nihal Singh conquer Sindh if he wanted to? Having a seaport is critical to ensuring foreign aid and investments get to your territory.
 
Top