Megafauna working group
- Thread starter Sven
- Start date
Exactly. Which is why there will be lots of advanced kingdoms putting small cities in convenient harbours throughout the region.
If the inhabitants complain they're met with soldiers, bronze/iron, fire and disease.
Mm, a continental power conquering a marine people...seems I've heard that.
NothingNow
Banned
Yay!
Now, has anyone looked at the old Bronze Age New World stuff that's still on this site? It might be worth a look for you guys.
You'd be surprised what you can do with primitive shit. OTL Caribs and Tainos built some pretty impressive ships by making a dugout from a 50+ foot trunk and adding Sidewalls, a mast and either a proper keel or a leeboard. After that you've got a ship that is extremely sturdy, and more than capable of taking on the worst the Gulf of Mexico and Caribbean can throw at them in the Storm season, (August - February more or less, but generally the worst from November to February.) Really, until you have something like a clinker built ship, that's about as strong as you're going to get.
As for Pacific shipbuilding styles, well, Reed boats are nice, and a fairly widespread style, but seem to be more fair weather vessels unless very well made. As for Canoes, well, the Dugout design popular with the Haida IOTL is a good design for the pacific and will handle the Atlantic and Gulf/Caribbean as well, but seem to be mostly coastal boats, but that's an issue of scale and ingenuity, where adding an outrigger or two and making it a proa, or building a full on Catamaran might be useful.
Inshore, the traditional Birch Bark canoes, like those used by Voyageurs, and the traditional Cajun Pirogue are extremely well suited to the conditions one comes to expect from inshore waterways, if being more significantly complicated then a simple dugout. But they're easier to cary as well, so that balances out.
As for wood, you want something like Red Cedar (Thuja plicata), Larch, Sitka Spruce or Coast Redwood on the west coast, in the Gulf and you want Taxodium Cypress, which are water resistant, easy to work with, and last almost as long as Redwood will. Mahogany is the ideal shipbuilding wood for the Antilles, Central and South America, given it's general quality and water-resistance, while in general , Oak is nice where you can get it, and is a good framing hardwood, like Mahogany but tends to have a more inconsistent grain, which can weaken the wood and make it rather hard to work with.
Also, regarding trade, Reaching the Caribbean coast of the Yucatan (so Belize mostly) and Barbados can be a bitch to reach with the prevailing winds and currents though unless you manage to get the timing just right and come in from just the right direction, even with rowers.
The reason I think the Caribs and Tianos would lose, or at least partially lose comes down to numbers. They don't have enough people, the South Eastern Kingdoms and Mesoamerica do.Yay!
Now, has anyone looked at the old Bronze Age New World stuff that's still on this site? It might be worth a look for you guys.
You'd be surprised what you can do with primitive shit. OTL Caribs and Tainos built some pretty impressive ships by making a dugout from a 50+ foot trunk and adding Sidewalls, a mast and either a proper keel or a leeboard. After that you've got a ship that is extremely sturdy, and more than capable of taking on the worst the Gulf of Mexico and Caribbean can throw at them in the Storm season, (August - February more or less, but generally the worst from November to February.) Really, until you have something like a clinker built ship, that's about as strong as you're going to get.
As for Pacific shipbuilding styles, well, Reed boats are nice, and a fairly widespread style, but seem to be more fair weather vessels unless very well made. As for Canoes, well, the Dugout design popular with the Haida IOTL is a good design for the pacific and will handle the Atlantic and Gulf/Caribbean as well, but seem to be mostly coastal boats, but that's an issue of scale and ingenuity, where adding an outrigger or two and making it a proa, or building a full on Catamaran might be useful.
Inshore, the traditional Birch Bark canoes, like those used by Voyageurs, and the traditional Cajun Pirogue are extremely well suited to the conditions one comes to expect from inshore waterways, if being more significantly complicated then a simple dugout. But they're easier to cary as well, so that balances out.
As for wood, you want something like Red Cedar (Thuja plicata), Larch, Sitka Spruce or Coast Redwood on the west coast, in the Gulf and you want Taxodium Cypress, which are water resistant, easy to work with, and last almost as long as Redwood will. Mahogany is the ideal shipbuilding wood for the Antilles, Central and South America, given it's general quality and water-resistance, while in general , Oak is nice where you can get it, and is a good framing hardwood, like Mahogany but tends to have a more inconsistent grain, which can weaken the wood and make it rather hard to work with.
Also, regarding trade, Reaching the Caribbean coast of the Yucatan (so Belize mostly) and Barbados can be a bitch to reach with the prevailing winds and currents though unless you manage to get the timing just right and come in from just the right direction, even with rowers.
The islanders probably wouldn't be wiped out, and will likely give the main landers a bloody nose or two. If they're lucky they'll be brought into one of the kingdoms as a useful minority. If they aren't they'll be killed off over several centuries, and in a few cases a few decades.
Thanks for the information about the wood and currents. We'll definitely need it later.
I am very grateful to NothingNow for his information on boats, but I'm finding North American omnicompetence rather unconvincing, not to mention the backwardness of the people south of the US-Mexican border
From what I read, even the Tainos didn't immigrate into the Caribbean until well after the POD. These people, likeliest from Central America, will be different.
Numbers will have to be very disparate indeed, and that means a sustained and concerted effort from the mainland cultures. This is unlikely before they're at Persian Empire level - they'll have each other to worry about - and by then, even in the unlikely event the Caribbeans start from behind, they'll have caught up.
Mesoamerica will be the elder brother of the various regions, and even when/if North America overtakes it, it will still be quite powerful.
South America will have a slower start, but due to distance, and numbers, once they get a crack at the animals and new crops, they should catch up quite quickly.
The problem for the Caribbeans is that they're too close to the mainland, and too small to have their own large scale civilization. The southernmost islands and at first the more central islands should be safe. Cuba, Haiti and Jamaica should prove some problems to colonizers, but the smaller islands can definitely be taken. And even the big islands could have some problems with harbours being taken and fortified.
And the Tainos don't have to be the people on the island, there were probably earlier people who were pushed out by the Tainos.
Now if these people reach the island without any of the new crops and animals, and don't gain them in large amounts, before the mainlanders come in, there will be a slaughter. Much like what happened in the British Isle's with the various pre-history migrations.
If the people on the islands have part of the agricultural package, then I'm willing to agree they could hold out better. But you'd still probably see some of the poorer islands being taken over. Simply due to technology and numbers.
It's occurred to me that this is the Caribbean we're talking about.
If you want a fast, military takeover, there's nothing more likely than that, at a time convenient to your land power, there'll be a big hurricane - or a whole season of them - to destroy island settlements and fleets. Of course, the land power will be hurt, too. But probably not as deeply as the maritime one.
If you want a fast, military takeover, there's nothing more likely than that, at a time convenient to your land power, there'll be a big hurricane - or a whole season of them - to destroy island settlements and fleets. Of course, the land power will be hurt, too. But probably not as deeply as the maritime one.
Good idea!
I imagine that the island societies will be lagging considerably behind the mainland societies, with their more limited resources and populations. Following the Rapine Wars, with interest in trade and exploration on the rise, contact with island cultures will be unavoidable.
Shipbuilding technologies will improve in both coastal and island regions, and mercantile competition will be on the rise. The mainland will have the advantage in manpower and technology, but the islands will be relatively immune to invasion. But, when a major hurricane carves up the Greater Antilles, it leaves the island ports in disarray, and they are easily conquered.
The larger islands (Cuba and Hispaniola) will probably have large enough populations to resist total cultural assimilation, and may even successfully oust their conquerors after some time. Undoubtedly, there will still be significant island-culture influences on societal and cultural development in the entire region.
Over time, Cuba could become powerful, like Great Britain analogues who can maintain large populations and large navies, but are difficult to invade. What are the ports like in Cuba? Is it very easily accessible?