Megafauna working group

[Sven]

There have been a lot of "what if" threads about surviving megafauna and alternate domestications, but I haven't seen anybody recently put them together into a successful timeline. From what I've seen, there is enough interest here to make a timeline like this a reality, so I want to spearhead a collaborative megafauna project, and invite anybody who's interested in megafauna and alternative domestication scenarios to contribute.

Where do we start? We should first decide which megafauna we want to have survive. In order to make it manageable, I suggest we select no more than a dozen species. Obviously, we should pick some specifically to be future domesticates. Others we will undoubtedly choose just for the unadulterated awesomeness of them.

After we've decided on that, we should discuss how we are going to reconstruct the animals. For example, does the North American camel have one hump, two humps or no humps? Or, what color are a terror bird's feathers?

We would then need to decide who would encounter and domesticate these megafauna, what they would use them for, and how their cultures would develop differently with these animals. We can then begin the arduous undertaking of naming tribes/cultures, and building up a timeline.

So, let's start by nominating species to survive. Let's only consider New World species that were alive until the late Pleistocene. If there is enough response, we might try making the final decisions by poll.

I'm start us off by nominating two species:

1. Camel (Camelops sp.): for domestication (transport, milk, meat).
2. Glyptodont (Doedicurus clavicaudatus): for awesomeness.

 

[stewacide]

Like I said here if you want a realistic 'megafauna' timeline I think you need to go back at least hundreds of thousands if not millions of years, and have more wide-spread pre- and early-humans presenting species with a more gradual 'learning curve'.

It doesn't seem to be that humans are impossible to co-exist with - the examples of Africa and tropical Asia suggest nearly any species, no matter how large and fearsome, can co-exist with us just fine, just so long as there's no too-sudden 'technology shock' to push it over the edge of extinction.

Such a timeline would have the benefit of not necessarily affecting the evolution of modern humans (which was probably exclusively African). But it might require 'inventing' whole new cold-adapted species of hominids.

 

[NothingNow]

Okay, I'll say this now, I doubt anyone would try and domesticate Doedicurus. Unless they were drunk. And even then, only shortly, very shortly. Captured specimens could make for interesting traps though.

Camelops hesternus would make for a decent domesticate though, fairly sturdy, and well, a decent enough pack animal.

 

[stewacide]

Re: recently extinct American megafauna, I've always had a fascination with the giant beaver. I marvel at the kind of environment-shaping a bear-sized beaver could accomplish! Unfortunately they seem like sitting-ducks, being such big tasty defenceless prizes in oh-so-easy-to-find-and-break-into lodges.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Hmm, let's see. The humans arrived in North America the same time a giant climate change event happened (the end of the last ice age). This seems to be a two disasters at once situation. Due to the grasslands disappearing the megafauna was probably in a too bad shape to adapt to the humans in time. So a trick would be to get the humans there earlier, a couple of thousands years before the end of the Ice Age, so the megafauna animals have already adapted to surviving human hunters and built up resistance to possible cross species diseases the humans could have carried when the climate change events happen.

However, this might do absolutely nothing. In Europe humans had lived side by side with Mammoths and other megafauna animals for ages, still the European megafauna went extinct with the end of the Ice Age, and these animals had had time to adapt to the human presence. The problem might be that humans thrived in the changing climate, while the grazers really suffered from the diminishing of grasslands. In North America we have deserts appearing, in Europe there was the fast appearance of forests, which is a real death sentence to grazers.

Oh yes, animals to nominate. So, if we want to have a North America with all these nice Grazers, we need a couple of predators specialized in hunting them. I nominate:
Saber Toothed Cat
Scimitar Toothed Cat
Lion
Dire Wolf

 

[chr92]

I know the saiga was never domesticated in the Old World, but that does strike me as a bit of a missed opportunity. Besides, I hope to get one or two attractive dog breeds to herd and guard them.

 

[Domoviye]

My first timeline involved horses surviving. The POD was hunters killing off a herd of horses that had some kind of super flu before it could spread.
Its considered likely that a super virus + climate change + humans wiped out many of the large herd animals. If we go with this hypothesis, removing the super virus would save at least some species.
And my vote for animals would be horses, llama's/camels, mastadons, and maybe one or two species of bison and musk ox.
If you want to tweak surviving animals to be domesticated, we could change the psychology of the American mountain goat to be more like its Eurasian cousin, and elk to be more like domestic reindeer. The American breeds are too solitary to be domesticated, so they just need to be tweaked into forming largish herds.

 

[Sven]

Like I said here if you want a realistic 'megafauna' timeline I think you need to go back at least hundreds of thousands if not millions of years, and have more wide-spread pre- and early-humans presenting species with a more gradual 'learning curve'.

It doesn't seem to be that humans are impossible to co-exist with - the examples of Africa and tropical Asia suggest nearly any species, no matter how large and fearsome, can co-exist with us just fine, just so long as there's no too-sudden 'technology shock' to push it over the edge of extinction.

Such a timeline would have the benefit of not necessarily affecting the evolution of modern humans (which was probably exclusively African). But it might require 'inventing' whole new cold-adapted species of hominids.

Let's not worry too much about a point of divergence. The farther back we go, the more variables we have to deal with. Let's just assume that climate change isn't a problem for the megafauna in this timeline, and that human hunting wasn't enough to wipe them out all on its own. It may not be historically accurate, but our historical understanding of the time period is not such that we can make definite pronouncements either way.

 

[stewacide]

However, this might do absolutely nothing. In Europe humans had lived side by side with Mammoths and other megafauna animals for ages, still the European megafauna went extinct with the end of the Ice Age, and these animals had had time to adapt to the human presence. The problem might be that humans thrived in the changing climate, while the grazers really suffered from the diminishing of grasslands. In North America we have deserts appearing, in Europe there was the fast appearance of forests, which is a real death sentence to grazers.

It's only a theory, but it may be that the human habitation of Europe was still too sudden; particularly in northern Europe. AFAIK Homo Erectus was the first hominid to make it to Europe proper (i.e. not just the far reaches of the Caucuses) becoming the Neanderthals, but then you get another (relatively) sudden technological leap when modern humans make it into Europe also very late.

Now in Africa and tropical Asia you have a pretty much continuous habitation by human ancestors going back many millions of years, which remains at least a plausible explanation for why this region kept pretty much all of its megafauna.

 

[Sven]

Hi, All.

I'm going to rapid-fire some comments to everyone, and put a list of nominations at the end. Comments here are just my thoughts, and I will happily back down if I'm out-voted.

The humans arrived in North America the same time a giant climate change event happened (the end of the last ice age). This seems to be a two disasters at once situation. Due to the grasslands disappearing the megafauna was probably in a too bad shape to adapt to the humans in time. So a trick would be to get the humans there earlier, a couple of thousands years before the end of the Ice Age, so the megafauna animals have already adapted to surviving human hunters and built up resistance to possible cross species diseases the humans could have carried when the climate change events happen.

Good ideas, all. But, like I said to Stewacide, let's hold off on discussing a point of divergence for now: we're not done cherry-picking yet.

Okay, I'll say this now, I doubt anyone would try and domesticate Doedicurus.

Agreed. I think we should avoid making all the megafauna domesticable: some should be simply left as wild animals.

I've always had a fascination with the giant beaver. I marvel at the kind of environment-shaping a bear-sized beaver could accomplish! Unfortunately they seem like sitting-ducks, being such big tasty defenceless prizes in oh-so-easy-to-find-and-break-into lodges.

I agree that the giant beaver seems a particularly unlikely survivor. But, is this a nomination? What do other people think?

Oh yes, animals to nominate. So, if we want to have a North America with all these nice Grazers, we need a couple of predators specialized in hunting them. I nominate:
Saber Toothed Cat
Scimitar Toothed Cat
Lion
Dire Wolf

I'd recommend we go a bit light on the predators, just because they don't interface with human civilization well, and there are already a lot of predators in the New World. Of that list, I would suggest culling either the sabertooth or the scimitar cat (we don't really need two machairodonts), and then putting it up for a vote between the winner and the lion.

On top of that, we could have the Dire wolf replace the modern wolf in the New World, and have the modern wolf restricted to the Old World.

But, let's see what the consensus from the "committee" is. What does everybody else want to do, predator-wise?

I know the saiga was never domesticated in the Old World, but that does strike me as a bit of a missed opportunity. Besides, I hope to get one or two attractive dog breeds to herd and guard them.

I know very little about the saiga. Is there something that makes it a particularly good candidate for domestication?

And my vote for animals would be horses, llama's/camels, mastadons, and maybe one or two species of bison and musk ox.

I'm actually opposed to New World horses (in case you couldn't tell from my behavior on Argo's thread): it's not unique enough, in my opinion. I'd prefer to axe the horses and let the camel fill that niche. Plus, Argo is apparently going to take the horse route, so it might be good for us to go a different way. I wouldn't be opposed to keeping them as wild game animals.

What does everybody else think about horses?

Also, with llamas, are we talking giant llamas or regular-sized llamas?

Finally, with bison and musk ox, do you want the extant species from OTL plus some of the extinct ones, or do you want to replace the extant ones with other species?

If you want to tweak surviving animals to be domesticated, we could change the psychology of the American mountain goat to be more like its Eurasian cousin, and elk to be more like domestic reindeer. The American breeds are too solitary to be domesticated, so they just need to be tweaked into forming largish herds.

I was actually considering the mountain goat as a llama-analogue pack animal for another timeline. It's kind of freaky how you and I are thinking alike like this.

I'm not going to put these on the list, since those survived in OTL, but I like the ideas. Let's hear some thoughts from the "committee": do we want to domesticate mountain goats and/or elk?

-----

The list so far (as I suggest we consider it):

*camel (Camelops hesternus)
glyptodont (Doedicurus clavicaudatus)
Sabertooth/scimitar cat or lion (vote)
dire wolf or modern wolf (vote)
*saiga
*horse
*llama
mastodon
bison
musk ox
​

(Asterisks mark animals under consideration for domestication)

Also (possibly) under consideration: giant beaver, domestic mountain goat, domestic elk

Feel free to lobby against my suggestions, or to add new nominations.

 

[Snake Featherston]

A question that comes up here is whether this requires all megafauna to survive, including ones that went extinct during the historical era IOTL. Surviving moas and Steller's Eagles, surviving dodos and great auks, a Steller's sea cow that lives into the modern age, aurochs somehow lasting into the 21st Century, the tarpan doing likewise, megafauna survival includes a lot more than the ones in the American continent.

Any POD that leaves the Australian ones intact will have butterflies as far back as the entrance of humankind into Europe so anything approaching OTL civilization is not a sure thing. However a POD that leaves the extinct gorilla-sized lemurs of Madagascar alive might cause some serious confusion about what is an ape and what isn't in the ATL's biology.

 

[Troyer IV]

This might be a fun sort of guidance...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_Interchange

 

[yourworstnightmare]

dire wolf or modern wolf (vote)

The thing is both wolves could live side by side, they did it during the Ice Age. The modern gray wolf was already then a diversified predator, hunting all kinds of prey, and even taking fish, while the dire wolf was specialized in hunting grazers such as horse, bison and camel.

 

[twovultures]

I like most of the nominations so far!

However, I'd vote against having domesticable mountain goats-American mountain goats have a pretty limited range in the wild, and are very specialized. I think a more widespread and adaptable animal is better for domesticates.

 

[chr92]

'I know very little about the saiga. Is there something that makes it a particularly good candidate for domestication?'


I was thinking about the saiga's ability to produce twins and triplets under good conditions.

Also, while I like the idea of giant beavers, I did read they weren't dam builders.

The musk ox is a good idea. In fact, I'm going to have trouble deciding between them.

 

[Sven]

The thing is both wolves could live side by side, they did it during the Ice Age. The modern gray wolf was already then a diversified predator, hunting all kinds of prey, and even taking fish, while the dire wolf was specialized in hunting grazers such as horse, bison and camel.

I don't disagree with any of this. In my mind, the ultimate goal here is to create a unique environment that will shape human culture and history in novel ways. I'm all for keeping a diversity of non-domesticated animals, because ecology is my wheelhouse; but, when we make our timeline, what are we going to do with two wolves that we couldn't do with one? They're so similar to each other, it seems that it would be little more than a random factoid that would hardly affect our timeline at all.

Of course, if I'm going to argue this position, I suppose I should also vote to axe the additional bison and musk ox that were suggested. So, that will be my official opinion on the matter.

But, I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on the predator situation. Do other people want to keep large numbers of predators, or do you think we should pare them down to just one or two species?

Also, Yourworstnightmare, how do you feel about my machairodont/lion suggestion?

 

[Sven]

A question that comes up here is whether this requires all megafauna to survive, including ones that went extinct during the historical era IOTL.

I'm open to discussion on the matter, but I recommend we only keep about a dozen species alive, just to keep the variables and butterflies down to a manageable number.

I assumed that we would just be altering the New World fauna, and leaving the Old World intact. That seems to be what most people try to do with megafauna timelines, so why don't we just work with that, and leave Australia and New Zealand for another thread?

 

[twovultures]

But, I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on the predator situation. Do other people want to keep large numbers of predators, or do you think we should pare them down to just one or two species?

I think we should pare them down to just one or two species. I agree with what you said about predators not surviving very well near human civilizations, and I think most predators that survive a pleistocene extinction would quickly die out when agriculture starts to spread in the Americas.

With that in mind, I propose that whatever predator species we choose to survive fulfill two criteria:

a) capable of living in areas where there are surviving megafauna species but which are poor for agriculture (and so will have low human populations to compete with, even as American civilizations develop)

b) Predators specializing in hunting the surviving megafauna. YourWorstNightmare has already pointed out how specialist predators can and have lived alongside generalist predators.

 

[danwild6]

Some info on the Settlement of the Americas.

 

[Screvier20]

I like most of the nominations so far!

However, I'd vote against having domesticable mountain goats-American mountain goats have a pretty limited range in the wild, and are very specialized. I think a more widespread and adaptable animal is better for domesticates.

Maybe not Mountain Goat (Oreamnos americanus) but an extinct species Harrington's Mountain Goat (Oreamnos harringtoni) who lived in the southwest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreamnos_harringtoni