Medieval settlement of Jan Mayen

Most likely settlers for Jan Mayen

  • Norse (North Germanic)

    Votes: 38 70.4%
  • Thule (Inuit)

    Votes: 14 25.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 2 3.7%

  • Total voters
    54
How does one avoid having the walrus population/populations from becoming depleted?

Either you make the population big enough that it could replenish what the Jan Mayeners killed, or you accept it will become depleted. It only needs to last a century or two, as by about 1400, better quality African ivory is hitting the European market.

I don't think Jan Mayen would support large amounts of agriculture, but it could support some sheep aswell as some plants. The plants grown on Jan Mayen would not be a large amount of the Jan Mayenite diet though.

There's seaweed too. That was a significant part of the Inuit and early-modern Greenlanders' diet, and could have been on Jan Mayen too. Some breeds of sheep can be fed exclusively on seaweed, and this happens today in the feral sheep population on North Ronaldsay in the Orkneys.

Perhaps the Norse could develop a technology resembling the Kudlik or recieve knowledge of it thru trade? If the Norse had this technology then they would be less dependent on tree-products.

That's a good idea. I'm not sure I see there being significant contact between the Norse Jan Mayeners and the Inuit, so I think an independent invention of a similar technology makes more sense. Tallow — rendered beef or mutton fat — was well-known as a fuel, and was used to make candles for those who couldn't afford wax candles. The oil lamp was also well-known. This requires putting them together and experimenting with walrus, whale or seal blubber. Discovering how to do that would make a population a lot more sustainable.

Could you imagine something that would lead to a permanent settlement?

One option is to make Jan Mayen a wintering ground for walruses, rather than a summer breeding ground. That would necessitate the Jan Mayeners being there during the winter. This is actually quite plausible, as the long Greenlandic coasts where the walruses can beach themselves are what the walruses want for a summer breeding ground, while the deeper waters around Jan Mayen are what they want in the winter. It's probably light enough for a few hours for the Jan Mayeners to see to hunt out on the pack ice around the island.

Perhaps that means that boats would have to be dragged onto land, as to protect them against the environment?

Without a harbour, they'd have to. You can't leave them anchored unattended in an Arctic storm. If their boats are damaged, they can only repair them with whatever wood they've imported; if that runs out, they're stranded until another boat comes their way. Once the walrus ivory trade collapses in c1400, I can't see many other boats coming their way without a good reason, as it's not on the way to anywhere. A larger population might be able to survive a few centuries without means of escape from the island, but I don't think the Jan Mayen population could ever be big enough: they would have been constantly at risk of extinction through disease or natural disaster killing off a dozen people. That suggests we need some other commodity for them to trade after walruses stop being viable. With the trade comes people to replenish the population if disaster strikes.

I do have one idea for that commodity: narwhal tusks. Narwhal did not live in the waters near any mediæval European settlement in OTL (except possibly some Same populations on the north coast of the Kola Pennisula who I assume had little access to European trade), but they do live in the waters around Jan Mayen. Walrus ivory was expensive, but narwhal tusks fetched a king's ransom. They were believed to be unicorn horns with magical properties, and there are reports of individual tusks being worth more than a castle. The Inuit were able to catch narwhal, using harpoons from boats or spears in waterholes in the pack ice. If the Jan Mayeners learnt to do this too, that's a significant source of income, and enough to keep the world trading with them after the walrus ivory market has gone.

"Det finnes ikke dårlig vær, bare dårlige klær."

True. Is that a saying in Norwegian too? It is in British English.
 
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Either you make the population big enough that it could replenish what the Jan Mayeners killed, or you accept it will become depleted. It only needs to last a century or two, as by about 1400, better quality African ivory is hitting the European market.
The Faroes has had organised hunting of whales for centuries, perhaps something similar could be organised at Jan Mayen? Allthough the Faroese organised the hunts of whales as opposed to regulating the number of animals that are felled.
https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindefangst
There's seaweed too. That was a significant part of the Inuit and early-modern Greenlanders' diet, and could have been on Jan Mayen too. Some breeds of sheep can be fed exclusively on seaweed, and this happens today in the feral sheep population on North Ronaldsay in the Orkneys.
I was not aware of the utility of seaweed. :cool:
That's a good idea. I'm not sure I see there being significant contact between the Norse Jan Mayeners and the Inuit, so I think an independent invention of a similar technology makes more sense. Tallow — rendered beef or mutton fat — was well-known as a fuel, and was used to make candles for those who couldn't afford wax candles. The oil lamp was also well-known. This requires putting them together and experimenting with walrus, whale or seal blubber. Discovering how to do that would make a population a lot more sustainable.
The Jan Mayenites might have the time for such experimentation during the winter or another season, depending on how Jan Mayen's economic seasons. During the winter i assume there will be less work to be done, and the population will spend more time in the houses/vilage. Since the Jan Mayenites might get bored or restless during this period of time, they could use this time to experiment. Norse Greenlanders apparantly spent lots of time inside during the winter.
One option is to make Jan Mayen a wintering ground for walruses, rather than a summer breeding ground. That would necessitate the Jan Mayeners being there during the winter. This is actually quite plausible, as the long Greenlandic coasts where the walruses can beach themselves are what the walruses want for a summer breeding ground, while the deeper waters around Jan Mayen are what they want in the winter. It's probably light enough for a few hours for the Jan Mayeners to see to hunt out on the pack ice around the island.
If Jan Mayen is a summer breeding ground for Walrus, won't hunts of Walrus at Jan Mayen be extra impactfull on the Walrus population?
Without a harbour, they'd have to. You can't leave them anchored unattended in an Arctic storm. If their boats are damaged, they can only repair them with whatever wood they've imported; if that runs out, they're stranded until another boat comes their way. Once the walrus ivory trade collapses in c1400, I can't see many other boats coming their way without a good reason, as it's not on the way to anywhere.
WIthout lumber they would have to lay stone plates that would have a v-form to pull the boats over. How long inland would the boats have to be dragged? How would the use of boats be restricted by the work needed to transport boats to the sea, and back again? Would the crew of a boat need help from people at the island to get a ashore, and transport the boat back to it's storage area/facility, or could they do it by themselfes?
A larger population might be able to survive a few centuries without means of escape from the island, but I don't think the Jan Mayen population could ever be big enough: they would have been constantly at risk of extinction through disease or natural disaster killing off a dozen people. That suggests we need some other commodity for them to trade after walruses stop being viable. With the trade comes people to replenish the population if disaster strikes.
https://www.nature.com/news/dying-woolly-mammoths-were-in-genetic-meltdown-1.21575
Could a small isolated population eventually experience a "genetic meltdown"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1936-magic-number-for-space-pioneers-calculated/
The “magic number” of people needed to create a viable population for multi-generational space travel has been calculated by researchers. It is about the size of a small village – 160. But with some social engineering it might even be possible to halve this to 80.
I do have one idea for that commodity: narwhal tusks. Narwhal did not live in the waters near any mediæval European settlement in OTL (except possibly some Same populations on the north coast of the Kola Pennisula who I assume had little access to European trade), but they do live in the waters around Jan Mayen. Walrus ivory was expensive, but narwhal tusks fetched a king's ransom. They were believed to be unicorn horns with magical properties, and there are reports of individual tusks being worth more than a castle. The Inuit were able to catch narwhal, using harpoons from boats or spears in waterholes in the pack ice. If the Jan Mayeners learnt to do this too, that's a significant source of income, and enough to keep the world trading with them after the walrus ivory market has gone.
The Sami did trade some with Norse traders, they also paid tribute to Norse jarls.

Good idea! How many people are needed to man a ship/ships for a narwhale hunt? One weakness of this idea is that one bad trip may result in a large amount/proportion of Jan Mayen's population dieing at sea. The people who would go at these hunt would likely be fit males, who's absence would make the life for the rest harder.
True. Is that a saying in Norwegian too? It is in British English.
I am not sure where it originates but it is often used in Norway. From a quick search i made using a search engine, it seems like it used to a slogan from the company "Helly Hansen". You can translate it into English, but i have only heard it in Norwegian before.

English version
"there is no such a thing as bad weather, only bad clothing."[/QUOTE]
 
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althisfan

Banned
I hope someone can correct me if they have definitive proof, but as far as I know the Inuit never made it to Iceland (pseudo-history in the vein of 1421-style "stories" isn't definitive proof) so I find it hard to see them making it to Jan Mayen. While there were pre-Inuit natives in Greenland prior to the Norse, they left and remember that the current Inuit didn't make it to Greenland until AFTER the Norse. The current Inuit are not descended from the natives who were in Greenland prior to the Norse, they are later migrants only as related as saying current Russians are descended from Swedes.
 
I hope someone can correct me if they have definitive proof, but as far as I know the Inuit never made it to Iceland (pseudo-history in the vein of 1421-style "stories" isn't definitive proof) so I find it hard to see them making it to Jan Mayen.

I'm sure you're right about Inuit not reaching Iceland. There is never pack ice stretching from Iceland to Greenland, but there is sometimes pack ice connecting Jan Mayen to Greenland. The Inuit could potentially have walked to Jan Mayen, though it would have been a long dangerous journey. I don't think it's all that likely, but it seems lot more likely than them getting to Iceland.

While there were pre-Inuit natives in Greenland prior to the Norse, they left and remember that the current Inuit didn't make it to Greenland until AFTER the Norse.

The Dorset culture is the previous ethnic group in Greenland before the Thule (Inuit) people. They were still in the far north-west of Greenland for a century after the first Norse settled south-west Greenland, and they remained in Baffin Island and northern Labrador for longer. We know the Norse Greenlanders headed a long way north to their walrus hunting grounds; there's also some evidence that they went to Labrador for lumber, and traded with indigenous people on Baffin Island. Any of these could have brought the Norse Greenlanders them into contact with the Dorset culture, and we know there was contact as Dorset culture carvings of Caucasians have been found on Baffin Island.
 
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Jan Mayen are too small for a non-agricultural population to live there, and agriculture are not possible there.
 
Jan Mayen are too small for a non-agricultural population to live there, and agriculture are not possible there.
Link below lists flora present at Jan Mayen.
https://www.jan-mayen.no/flora.htm
Taraxacum acromaurum Løvetann (variant) Photo: PD
Taraxacum brachyrhunchum Løvetann (variant) Grows only on Jan Mayen
Taraxacum croceum
Fjell-løvetann
Taraxacum recedens Løvetann (variant) Grows only on Jan Mayen
Taraxacum torvum
Løvetann (variant) Grows only on Jan Mayen
Above lists are only some of the plants that are on Jan Mayen. The english name for "Løvetann" is dandelions. Dandelions are edible, or atleast some types of dandelions are edible. Below are some links on how to prepare dandelions.
https://www.dinside.no/bolig/ugresset-du-kan-spise/61061618
https://www.kk.no/helse/spis-lovetann-67710989
Could dandelion become domesticated by Jan Mayenites?

Maybe it is more likely that any plants that Jan Mayenites eat is the result of foraging not agriculture.

Also maybe any agriculture or foraging of plants will for the most part be used to spice meet.

Also agriculture on Jan Mayen does not need to be as important in the populations diet that it is in China, Denmark or Egypt. Products from agriculture might only be 5 or 10% of Jan Mayen diet. On the otherhand could plants on Jan Mayen be used in agriculture?
 
It's 377 km2, 259 km2 of which is unglaciated. The sea ice extends the range which populations can hunt and fish.
The sea ice is seasonal which can be weakness aswell as a strenght. Jan Mayenites would likely need to store food for times when food is less plentifull and/or acessible.
 
The Faroes has had organised hunting of whales for centuries, perhaps something similar could be organised at Jan Mayen?

I'm not sure whaling is the way to go if you want a permanent population that survives beyond mediæval times. As you point point below for narwhal hunting, there's a high risk of killing most of the adult male population when a whaling expedition fails to return.

If Jan Mayen is a summer breeding ground for Walrus, won't hunts of Walrus at Jan Mayen be extra impactfull on the Walrus population?

As I understand it, walruses spend most of the year in their summer breeding grounds and only leave for their wintering grounds when ice starts preventing access to sea in their summer waters. Hunting in large volumes during the birthing season will presumably have a more serious effect on walrus numbers, but I imagine there must be times when the walrus are still in their summer water when you can target them in a less impactful manner.

WIthout lumber they would have to lay stone plates that would have a v-form to pull the boats over. How long inland would the boats have to be dragged? How would the use of boats be restricted by the work needed to transport boats to the sea, and back again? Would the crew of a boat need help from people at the island to get a ashore, and transport the boat back to it's storage area/facility, or could they do it by themselfes?

The boats only need to be moved far enough from the sea that they won't be damaged by waves in a high spring tide. They could build crude boathouses or windbreaks to protect the boats from the wind. Does it matter if the crew need help from the villagers to drag the boat up the shore? I expect the villagers will be eager to see the crew of the boat when they return from a lengthy expedition, and would naturally go down to the shore to meet them and can help drag the boats up the slipway to the boathouse. If necessary (for example, if the slipway is steep) a rope and block-and-tackle can help.

My bigger concern is whether the boats you need will withstand being dragged out of the water in this way. Small boats have enough structural integrity that with enough people to man-handle them, they can safely be pulled across land. That's not necessarily true of larger boats. Which sort of boat you need depends what you want the boats for. When I raised the point about the settlement needing boats, I had in mind boats that were ocean-worthy and could make the journey to the nearest larger settlements: 600 km to Iceland or 900 km to Lofoten. I'm doubtful such boats could be dragged up the shore, so if you want the Jan Mayen population to have such boats, you need to contrive for them to build a harbour, and I think on Jan Mayen that's beyond what mediæval technology could achieve. Boathouses would certainly provide a means for protecting smaller boats that could be used round the coast and further off-shore in good weather, for example for fishing. I'm not sure whether such boats would be suitable for whaling. How small can a whaling boat be?

Could a small isolated population eventually experience a "genetic meltdown"?

Almost certainly, but how quickly? The “genetic meltdown” of the Wrangle Island mammoth population took place over thousands of years. We can cope with something similar on Jan Mayen. In the worst case, they'll be isolated from c1350 to c1650. There are present-day examples of completely isolated populations. Look at North Sentinel Island, for example. Their population has almost certainly been completely isolated for several centuries.

Good idea! How many people are needed to man a ship/ships for a narwhale hunt? One weakness of this idea is that one bad trip may result in a large amount/proportion of Jan Mayen's population dieing at sea. The people who would go at these hunt would likely be fit males, who's absence would make the life for the rest harder.

I think you deal with it by having them hunt narwhal in very small numbers through the ice. You can perhaps have them catching narwhal by accident while hunting seal, which may be how the mediæval Inuit ended up catching narwhal (which we know they occasionally did). The technique is to make a very tiny hole in the ice, maybe only a couple of centimetres across, and dangle a short but sturdy baited line down the hole. Wait for something to take the bait and then stab blindly down through the hole with long spears. The hunter only gets to see what they've caught when they enlarge the hole to pull the animal up. It's easy to see how this could result in occasionally catching the wrong thing, including, rarely, significantly larger animals like narwhals. Even one or two a year is probably enough to get the occasional ship to visit. In fact, it's probably desirable they don't catch them in higher volumes as narwhal tusks will lose their mystique (and thus value) if it becomes know that they're not in fact magical unicorn horns.

If we can have occasional ships from Iceland or northern Norway visiting, we can preserve the settlement as largely self-sufficient, but also give it access to timber, metal tools and other essentials, as well as the possibility of extra settlers. These traders will have minimal contact with the Danish government, so we can easily have the government knowing nothing about population, as was the case in the closing years of the Norse settlements in Greenland. The traders would probably be keen to keep quiet, as they have a lucrative deal trading tools and timber for "unicorn horns" worth a kings' ransom.

English version "there is no such a thing as bad weather, only bad clothing."

In England, "there's no such thing as bad weather, only unsuitable clothing" is a quote often attributed to Alfred Wainwright, who wrote a very well-known series of books back in the 1960s on walking in the English Lake District.
 
Link below lists flora present at Jan Mayen.
https://www.jan-mayen.no/flora.htm

Above lists are only some of the plants that are on Jan Mayen.

A more thorough list can be found here. It lists Empetrum hermaphroditum (now called Empetrum nigrum hermaphroditum) which is the common crowberry. I sometimes eat them if I find them while out in the mountains; they're quite tasty if a little bitter, not unlike bilberries in taste. Wikipedia tells me the Inuit and Sami peoples eat them.

Maybe it is more likely that any plants that Jan Mayenites eat is the result of foraging not agriculture.

I agree.
 
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CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Who would most likely settle Jan Mayen?

Why would Jan Mayen be settled?

How large could Jan Mayen's permanent and Jan Mayen's temporary population be numerically?

How would Jan Mayen society likely develop?
Your take?

One feature might be that Jan Mayen's population increases during the season for marine harvests. Permanent inhabitants might specialise in hosting the temporary inhabitants.
Consequences of Jan Mayen having a permanent settlement
1. Jan Mayen would not be re-discovered by later European explorers, but instead have a more indiginous history of discovery.
2. Jan Mayen would have a known name. Therefore later explorers, whalers, etc would not try to give names to the island beside nicknames.

Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Mayen
http://jan.mayen.no
European "discoverers" didn't exactly show a lot of concern about what the indigenous population called a place. They also didn't really care if there WERE indigenous populations (Columbus "discovered" America, never mind that there were north of 50 MILLION (some recent studies indicate double that figure) people already living in the Western Hemisphere. He still By God discovered America, just like Willem Janszoon "discovered Australia". There are a number of U.S. states that are named after the tribal ground that lived there (Alabama & Texas are examples), but you also have Maryland, Virginia, New York, etc. Even when the name of the native people has been retained, it is not the name the native people's CALLED the region in most cases.
 

althisfan

Banned
European "discoverers" didn't exactly show a lot of concern about what the indigenous population called a place. They also didn't really care if there WERE indigenous populations (Columbus "discovered" America, never mind that there were north of 50 MILLION (some recent studies indicate double that figure) people already living in the Western Hemisphere. He still By God discovered America, just like Willem Janszoon "discovered Australia". There are a number of U.S. states that are named after the tribal ground that lived there (Alabama & Texas are examples), but you also have Maryland, Virginia, New York, etc. Even when the name of the native people has been retained, it is not the name the native people's CALLED the region in most cases.
Very true, Oregon and Wisconsin are actually the same Native American word but written in foreign languages into English through different paths (Oregon through Spanish and Wisconsin through French) and Idaho is a made-up name a White politician came up with and claimed as a Native American word, his fraud failed the first time he proposed it for a state, but somehow the people of current Idaho liked it and ran with it.
 
I'm not sure whaling is the way to go if you want a permanent population that survives beyond mediæval times. As you point point below for narwhal hunting, there's a high risk of killing most of the adult male population when a whaling expedition fails to return.
Agreed.
As I understand it, walruses spend most of the year in their summer breeding grounds and only leave for their wintering grounds when ice starts preventing access to sea in their summer waters. Hunting in large volumes during the birthing season will presumably have a more serious effect on walrus numbers, but I imagine there must be times when the walrus are still in their summer water when you can target them in a less impactful manner.
Perhaps going after old or weak Walrus could be a solution or part of a solution.
My bigger concern is whether the boats you need will withstand being dragged out of the water in this way. Small boats have enough structural integrity that with enough people to man-handle them, they can safely be pulled across land. That's not necessarily true of larger boats. Which sort of boat you need depends what you want the boats for. When I raised the point about the settlement needing boats, I had in mind boats that were ocean-worthy and could make the journey to the nearest larger settlements: 600 km to Iceland or 900 km to Lofoten. I'm doubtful such boats could be dragged up the shore, so if you want the Jan Mayen population to have such boats, you need to contrive for them to build a harbour, and I think on Jan Mayen that's beyond what mediæval technology could achieve. Boathouses would certainly provide a means for protecting smaller boats that could be used round the coast and further off-shore in good weather, for example for fishing. I'm not sure whether such boats would be suitable for whaling. How small can a whaling boat be?
Perhaps a small canal could be made for transporting ships into safer areas?

Another option what if the ships can be reduced to parts and then built again? That way it may be easier to store ships.
 
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