Medieval/Dark Ages Catalan PoDs?

Zioneer

Banned
So I have a hankering for a Catalan TL, and all I know is that I want the PoD to be in the Middle/Dark Ages. Nothing beyond 1100.

I have multiple ideas that I want to have happen, but I don't know what PoD could cause them. So I'll list them out, and any of the AH experts can help me figure out what needs to be done.

1. Muslim Catalonia. It can either be the Catalans dominating Spain, or them being both a religious and ethnic minority within Spain.

2. A non-Catholic (but still Christian) "heretical" Catalonia. No Protestants, since that's too late for my desired era of PoDs, but any kind of heresy that could dominate the spiritual leanings of the Catalans.

3. While it's basically impossible to have Catalonia be dominated by the Jewish faith, is there any PoD that could give Jews the maximum amount of influence possible in Catalan culture that they could have in any European nation?

4. Make Catalonia and the Catalan culture (or a blend of it with the local culture) extend past the OTL Catalonia down south and west, into Andalusia.

5. I know it's an old cliche, but a PoD that makes the Kingdom of Aragon survive, and possibly expand even more.

I'd like to work on a TL featuring any of these PoDs, but I'm at a loss on where to start.
 
How about Catalonia being the power of spain, replacing Castille-Aragon as the unifying power?

(Who ruled Catalonia in the past? was there a local nobility line?)
 
1. Muslim Catalonia. It can either be the Catalans dominating Spain, or them being both a religious and ethnic minority within Spain.

2. A non-Catholic (but still Christian) "heretical" Catalonia. No Protestants, since that's too late for my desired era of PoDs, but any kind of heresy that could dominate the spiritual leanings of the Catalans.

3. While it's basically impossible to have Catalonia be dominated by the Jewish faith, is there any PoD that could give Jews the maximum amount of influence possible in Catalan culture that they could have in any European nation?

The only problem is that Catalan is an offshoot of Occitan so the scenarios 1 and 3 are ASB but the 2 is very possible if the Cathars won against the catholic church.
 
1. Muslim Catalonia. It can either be the Catalans dominating Spain, or them being both a religious and ethnic minority within Spain.

2. A non-Catholic (but still Christian) "heretical" Catalonia. No Protestants, since that's too late for my desired era of PoDs, but any kind of heresy that could dominate the spiritual leanings of the Catalans.

3. While it's basically impossible to have Catalonia be dominated by the Jewish faith, is there any PoD that could give Jews the maximum amount of influence possible in Catalan culture that they could have in any European nation?

4. Make Catalonia and the Catalan culture (or a blend of it with the local culture) extend past the OTL Catalonia down south and west, into Andalusia.

5. I know it's an old cliche, but a PoD that makes the Kingdom of Aragon survive, and possibly expand even more.
1.- Absolutelly ASB. Catalonia is a part of the 'Marca Hispanica' from the frank kingdom in the north
2.- The Cathar thing is arround 1200, but if you abort the marriage between Ramon Berenguer IV and Petronila of Aragon and you keep an 'independent' County of Barcelona that somehow achieves kingdomness... it's possible. The problem is that aborting that marriage means Petronila marries Sancho III of Castilla, and that means a lot of trouble for Barcelona/Catalonia. The only way you have from here is to make Barcelona a more Languedoc-oriented 'kingdom' (as Iberia is dominated by the Castilian-Aragonesse), making the catharism triumph in the crusade against the albigenisans. Pedro II died in the Battle of Murat in 1213 defending his vassals in the crusade. If he wins you keep the couloured area in this map (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Occitania_y_Aragon_en_1213.svg) under aragonesse control. You only need to eliminate the aragonesse from the equation (a lot of butterflies here) and you have a Languedoc centered County/Kingdom of Barcelona that can have some Cathar faith, but you must remember Pedro II is nicknamed 'El Catolico'
3.- Jews had a lot of influence in Barcelona (and catalonia) until Pedro IV the Ceremonious. Catalonia is full of 'calls' (in catalan) or 'juderias' (in spanish), one of the best conserved in Girona. Montjuich hill in Barcelona is named after the jews
4.- If you follow the way I marked in 2nd point it's difficult to expand south beyond OTL frontiers of the Aragonesse crown. With a more north oriented kingdom and without Jaime I (Pedro II doesn't die at Muret, so Jaime doesn't ascend to throne so early) perhaps you don't see the Balearics and Valencia under Barcelonesse power. But it is possible with the manpower and wealth from the north of the Pyrenees. Avoiding a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Almizra like treaty is of big importance here
5.- Your PoD is at Murat. Keeping so many lands north of the Pyrenees makes Aragon a lot stronger, and you can make the surviving Pedro II take the good decissions his son Jaime I took. You will have an Aragonesse Crown with the same southern lands and the northern ones, making it stronger. If somehow the buterflies avoid Martin the Elder dieing without descent (he survived his descendants) you can keep Aragon free of a castillian king, and down the way you can keep it free from Isabelle of Castille (with no Ferdinand due to butterflies, Isabelle (if she is born) will marry with the portuguesse prince)
 
The only problem is that Catalan is an offshoot of Occitan so the scenarios 1 and 3 are ASB but the 2 is very possible if the Cathars won against the catholic church.

Could there be political unity between those two sides of the same rough 'world', or the Pyreneas are just too high so to speak for an unity ever possible?
 
I think Eleanor of Aquitaine(Alienor d'Aquitania) can marry Ramon Berenguer IV, saving Norman England from the Hundred Years war.
 
I think Eleanor of Aquitaine(Alienor d'Aquitania) can marry Ramon Berenguer IV, saving Norman England from the Hundred Years war.

I was speaking more of the sheer issues of geography... Do we have posters here from Spain or france who could tell us how hard or easy it is to cross the mountanous regions?
 
I was speaking more of the sheer issues of geography... Do we have posters here from Spain or france who could tell us how hard or easy it is to cross the mountanous regions?

I'm neither, but I'll point out that the Pyrenees helped weaken the Frankish hold on the Marca Hispania over the years, not to mention screw up the French effort in the Peninsular War.
 
I'm neither, but I'll point out that the Pyrenees helped weaken the Frankish hold on the Marca Hispania over the years, not to mention screw up the French effort in the Peninsular War.

So yeah, I think bad traveling between those sides wouldn't help an unification of Catalonia and occitania, and wouldn't help the united country on a few levels.
 
I'm from Spain (specifically from Barcelona) and I can say Pyrenees are not easy to travel by, but in the eastern tip of them (arround the current frontier of La Jonquera) it's easier. BTW, the problem is nonexistant in that time, given the Rossillion region (north of the Pyrinees) is Spanish (aragonesse) until the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_the_Pyrenees in 1659. The easynest of that pass is demonstrated by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_de_Bellegarde and when it was lost in the treaty, the building of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sant_Ferran_Castle, the biggest fortress of its time.

In the map I posted before you can see what a big region of Languedoc can fall at aragonesse feet if Pedro II doesn't make a fool of himself in the Battle of Muret, and survives (and wins) that battle. The numbers are clearly in the favour of the aragonesse and, if not for the death of the king in the opening of the battle, it's very possible to win at Muret. You only need to kill Simon de Monfort and the crusade is decapitated. Tolosans (from Toulouse) are ready to fall in the lap of Aragon instead at the feet of Paris. Then you have a trans-pyrenaic kingdom (you have it OTL with the Rousillon (in the crown proper), Montpellier and Provence (as personal union))
 
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1. Muslim Catalonia. It can either be the Catalans dominating Spain, or them being both a religious and ethnic minority within Spain
Err...Maybe with a Peppin failing to conquer Septimania in 740's, but it would cause the gothic lords to gain control for themselves or being absorbed by Aquitaine. It would need a quick intervention from arabo-berbers in Ebro's valley, maybe a Fihrid state after the creation of the Ommayad emirate? Stiil, it would need some massive work

2. A non-Catholic (but still Christian) "heretical" Catalonia. No Protestants, since that's too late for my desired era of PoDs, but any kind of heresy that could dominate the spiritual leanings of the Catalans.
You have too importants heresy that could make it.
Adoptianism seems to be the easier one. It was a post-arianist doctrine, that made Jesus an adopted son of God. Charlemagne have to deal with that to crush it, so if you have no Carloingian Empire, you can have Adoptianist Catalonia maybe.
Catharism is the most evident, but the most difficult too. You need to expand your definition of Catalonia up to Carcassone and Razes counties (they were technically part of it OTL, soi no big work) and critically, make France recognize it before 1200's. Catharism would likely remain an internal affair of Aragon, but you need to work big to avoid papacy, other hispanic kingdoms and France to "kindly intervene"

4. Make Catalonia and the Catalan culture (or a blend of it with the local culture) extend past the OTL Catalonia down south and west, into Andalusia.
Well, you need an early PoD, with a surviving christian state after the islamic conquest (yes, i know, it's basically my own timeline). After that Calatonia is fragmented into little counties, and when they unite themselves, this is almost too late.
By keeping Aragonese-Barcelonese federation, well...Maybe a more fragmented Castille would do it, but France wouldn't let a big Aragon existing without fighting him even harder than OTL
 
In the map I posted before you can see what a big region of Languedoc can fall at aragonesse feet if Pedro II doesn't make a fool of himself in the Battle of Muret, and survives (and wins) that battle. The numbers are clearly in the favour of the aragonesse and, if not for the death of the king in the opening of the battle, it's very possible to win at Muret.
You need a big earlier PoD for that, enough to remove the Raimon from Tolosa count's title. The Aragonese-Occitan army have the number, but Raimon didn't have the guts and flee even before fighting the battle to protect Tolosa.

You only need to kill Simon de Monfort and the crusade is decapitated.
I disagree. Monfort was only one of the most proeminant figures of the crusade. If crusaders manage to keep their unity (and keep off the lead Amaury de Monfort, soo stupid that we still say of a sucker that "He's Amaury"), they can still being a big big trouble, especially if the King of France decides finally to intervene

Tolosans (from Toulouse) are ready to fall in the lap of Aragon instead at the feet of Paris. Then you have a trans-pyrenaic kingdom (you have it OTL with the Rousillon (in the crown proper), Montpellier and Provence (as personal union))
Again, disagreement here. The Tolosans have called Aragon in search of allies and their vassazlage was percieved by them as nothing more than the vassalage towards France : a pure formal one.
Of course, Peire II can enforce his claims, but, he would cannot fight and the crusaders, and his own ennemies in Spain, the occitan lords, maybe the frenchs too.
 
I was speaking more of the sheer issues of geography... Do we have posters here from Spain or France who could tell us how hard or easy it is to cross the mountainous regions?

There is a reason for when the French King went to conquer Occitania it conquered quite soon...

Crossing the Pyrenees is not so difficult there are several mountain passes build by the Roman ( they too were very interested in keeping good lines of communication ) but even then crossing with an army was really hard except in summer ... that was the reason that most of the traffic between Iberia and Italica was made by sea ...

Keeping its northern possessions is hard even with some sort of bigger Balkanization of France ... maybe a long time alliance with Burgundy and/or Navarre ...
 
Crossing the Pyrenees is not so difficult there are several mountain passes build by the Roman ( they too were very interested in keeping good lines of communication ) but even then crossing with an army was really hard except in summer ... that was the reason that most of the traffic between Iberia and Italica was made by sea ...
Nevertheless, the passes between Catalonia and Rosello are the more practibables of Pyrenees.
Due tu saracenic and viking piracy, the sea traffic greatly slowed with the dissaperence of major cities (Empories) and the fleeing of population (Avignon). The passes as Banyuls saw their use greatly augmented, for andalusian raids, and for trade (and cultural exchanges).
If the PoD occurs between 700 and 1200, the Eastern Pyrenees are not an obstacle and are at the contrary greatly used.
For the crossing with armies, i disagree again. Most of islamic raids in High Middle Ages began in spring, as the eastern passes were quite practicables.

Keeping its northern possessions is hard even with some sort of bigger Balkanization of France ... maybe a long time alliance with Burgundy and/or Navarre ...
It was technically the policy of Aquitaine who searched an long term alliance with Lombardy. But it was for an important, and critically undisputed state.
You need to have this type of state for having an efficient alliance, as a ambitious count or lord, wanting to unite Catalonia under his yoke couldn't manage easily to calm his lieges and ennemies even if he's allied with some other regional power.
 
IMHO, in the dark ages it is quite easy to have the far more advanced Muslim armies crush the Christians; this seems like the easiest POD to me. It is especially easy to see this happening with the Battle of Tours' close victory for the Umayyads with their superior numbers and the fact that they were battle hardened.
 
I think it would be better if Occitans just behaved just like what Ukrainians in OTL did when they were under domination of other states, I think it is also better if many were not forced to flee Occitania because of persecutions against them, persecution against the Waldensian, Cathars or Huguenots.
 
IMHO, in the dark ages it is quite easy to have the far more advanced Muslim armies crush the Christians; this seems like the easiest POD to me. It is especially easy to see this happening with the Battle of Tours' close victory for the Umayyads with their superior numbers and the fact that they were battle hardened.
Battle of Tours : only a raid stopped by Franks. Secondary importance battle whatever win, only the propaganda made of it count.
It was just a raid (a major one, like the ones of 726 and 729) and muslims scholars didn't even talk about it.
For the superiors numbers, i doubt about it, there was approximatly the same numbers on each part.

If you want a decisive battle between muslims and christians in Gaul, the Battle of Tolosa in 721 against the Aquitains is far more important.
Indeed, the Arabo-Berbers came here with siege engines and families, showing a will of, not settleing the country because of too few men, but at least occupying the city as Narbona/Arbuna.

However, even with a victory in 721, the muslims simply didn't have the forces to occup all Aquitaine, leaving Gascony to Vascons (and leaving this major threat at their left flank) and, doesn't having enough arab or even berber people to settle the country; it would likely evolve as Septimania with only the capital diriged by Muslims, the rest being at the hands of local christian noblity.


I think it would be better if Occitans just behaved just like what Ukrainians in OTL did when they were under domination of other states, I think it is also better if many were not forced to flee Occitania because of persecutions against them, persecution against the Waldensian, Cathars or Huguenots.
Maybe it would be better, but it didn't happened OTL because of too many divergants interests, and because of the hability to neighboring powers to handle the eventual alliances or rebellions.
For me, the easier way is to have a christian state surviving the high-middle age as the Kingdom of Aquitaine, Septimania or even the Patriciate of Provence.
The persecution didn't touch too many people to talk about fleeing.
-Cathars didn't reach 50% of the population in the heavy catharism zone (approximativly a triangle with Albi, Muret, Fenouillères), furthermore cahtarism was a middle class religion (bourgeoisie not part of Patriciat, alliance between high nobility and high bourgeoisie; declassified periurban chivalry, mountainous nobility). The major part of paesant population remained catholics
-Waldesians were even less importants.
-Hugenots, or Camisards, were indeed more importants. But the fleeing of Protestants was grealty exxagerated, critically for Southern part of the kingdom. Indeed the northern protestants could fled in lutherian and calvinist countreis, but the southern ones have the choice between Spain and Italy.
It's why some preferred armed resistance (being rejected by religious body) and that led, after the dragonnaed that converted by force not expulsed, the protestand; to a rather acceptance; at least in some zones.
 
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