Medieval America Tk II: Discussion Thread

elkarlo

Banned
The specifics and numbers definitely depend on the state and the situation. Places with lots of small feuding powers would have lots of forts.



And in some places, adobe would definitely make a comeback.


Are there that many? You have horse riding nomads on the Plains, but I don't think they're Native American. It's just a logical lifestyle that would emerge in that environment.

In general, I think that all boundaries between Native Americans and their neighbors have disappeared. The Race Page on the original more-or-less addresses that.

Of course. Still, would like to put some specifics in.

As for odd materials, would wooden forts make a comeback in the rainy PCW?

For the Natives, the whole Sky father and Mother Earth, seem directly from Native American culture.

Of course, the races blended. Which is why i am arguing against a 1% pop ethnic group having any real impact.

As for devolving, this would be medival, and the nomads would look like the Avars, or Mongols, not pre iron age mid west nomads.
 
Of course. Still, would like to put some specifics in.

As for odd materials, would wooden forts make a comeback in the rainy PCW?

Since it's a collaborative project, I'd say go ahead and cook up some numbers. I'm not sure what you mean by PCW.

For the Natives, the whole Sky father and Mother Earth, seem directly from Native American culture.

Of course, the races blended. Which is why i am arguing against a 1% pop ethnic group having any real impact.

OK, the "New Age" religion. All of the religions (besides the Nondenominational Church) are slightly ASB, or at least based on somewhat obscure sects coming to the fore. But given that religious ideas can spread widely from relatively small beginnings, it's not totally out of question that Native American ideas could be revived in a new religion. But certainly you would not see any Native American languages being spoken (outside the far north) or see polities led by chiefs and tribal councils and things. So far, the project seems to have avoided that.

As for devolving, this would be medival, and the nomads would look like the Avars, or Mongols, not pre iron age mid west nomads.

Medieval, but still connected to the existing culture. It's reasonable for the prairies and the Rocky Mountains to have a certain Wild West vibe because all that is there here and now, and a lot of it (the hats, the horses) would be adaptive in that environment.
 
First of all, the entire concept is slightly ASB - the realistic concept would probably be more steampunk in nature (since people would still know where to get coal even in worse case scenarios). So everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Now to voice elkarlo's specific concerns of the Native Americans making a comeback - from a pure ethnic standpoint, no, they did not come back. Culturally, however, is a different matter. The way I saw New Mexico and the New Age religion breaks down as follows:

  1. 2012 Phenomenon hits, causing the Regression - details are scarce, but lots and lots of New Agers move to New Mexico (due to its 'paranormal' associations) to welcome in the Age of Aqaurius.
  2. New Mexico and Arizona go through population collapse as modern infrastructure decays. Water becomes worth more than gold
  3. The Reservations, being in pitiful locations to begin with, weather the Regression easier and become local power-brokers
  4. People who control access to water become more and more powerful, and use this to enforce their own spirtual views on the thirsty. This includes the Reservations, which have their own supply of water and knowledge of how to survive in the Southwest.
  5. Things stabilize - New Mexico and Arizona are now a collection of feuding city-states and fiefdoms whose rulers are descended from the influential people of the New Dark Ages. Intermarriage between these petty kingdoms is common, and as a result most nobles have Navajo or Hopi ancestry, which becomes a mark of pride
  6. By 2950 New Mexico has reunified and broken apart several times, and is now reunified. Both culture and religion are a blend of modern New Ageism and Ufology, Latino culture and Catholicism, and the aboriginal beliefs and cultures of the Southwestern Tribes, with New Ageism dominating.
Hope that clears some things up.
 
I know we're supposed to take White's work as canon, but I think that the population of the West Coast is far too small. California's Central Valley is one of the most fertile agricultural regions in the world, and the Willamette valley is highly productive also. Washington also produces a very large amount of grain that would go down the Columbia. The Pacific Northwest having as many people as rocky, infertile New England is ridiculous. And all of California having as many people as New York is just insane.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Since it's a collaborative project, I'd say go ahead and cook up some numbers. I'm not sure what you mean by PCW.



OK, the "New Age" religion. All of the religions (besides the Nondenominational Church) are slightly ASB, or at least based on somewhat obscure sects coming to the fore. But given that religious ideas can spread widely from relatively small beginnings, it's not totally out of question that Native American ideas could be revived in a new religion. But certainly you would not see any Native American languages being spoken (outside the far north) or see polities led by chiefs and tribal councils and things. So far, the project seems to have avoided that.



Medieval, but still connected to the existing culture. It's reasonable for the prairies and the Rocky Mountains to have a certain Wild West vibe because all that is there here and now, and a lot of it (the hats, the horses) would be adaptive in that environment.


Sorry meant PNW, not PCW. I hate smart phones.

Oh no doubt, some regional flavor from today would last. Be it the form of hats, or the style/ cut of pants
And ok, I understand what you are saying about Native.Not Native American culture but American culture that regressed.


BTW, with the decline and gradual erosion of central power. I think the later tang is a great example to use. Even loyal generals couldn7t help the central govt. And things just fell apart from there.
 

elkarlo

Banned
First of all, the entire concept is slightly ASB - the realistic concept would probably be more steampunk in nature (since people would still know where to get coal even in worse case scenarios). So everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Now to voice elkarlo's specific concerns of the Native Americans making a comeback - from a pure ethnic standpoint, no, they did not come back. Culturally, however, is a different matter. The way I saw New Mexico and the New Age religion breaks down as follows:

  1. 2012 Phenomenon hits, causing the Regression - details are scarce, but lots and lots of New Agers move to New Mexico (due to its 'paranormal' associations) to welcome in the Age of Aqaurius.
  2. New Mexico and Arizona go through population collapse as modern infrastructure decays. Water becomes worth more than gold
  3. The Reservations, being in pitiful locations to begin with, weather the Regression easier and become local power-brokers
  4. People who control access to water become more and more powerful, and use this to enforce their own spirtual views on the thirsty. This includes the Reservations, which have their own supply of water and knowledge of how to survive in the Southwest.
  5. Things stabilize - New Mexico and Arizona are now a collection of feuding city-states and fiefdoms whose rulers are descended from the influential people of the New Dark Ages. Intermarriage between these petty kingdoms is common, and as a result most nobles have Navajo or Hopi ancestry, which becomes a mark of pride
  6. By 2950 New Mexico has reunified and broken apart several times, and is now reunified. Both culture and religion are a blend of modern New Ageism and Ufology, Latino culture and Catholicism, and the aboriginal beliefs and cultures of the Southwestern Tribes, with New Ageism dominating.
Hope that clears some things up.


Having traveled to Arizona and NM quite a bit, I would argue that the Native Americans are prolly in a worse case for survival. They are on the worst lands, and only live via heavy subsidies. I don't see them thriving at all. As most of their survival skills are pretty much lost.
 
Having traveled to Arizona and NM quite a bit, I would argue that the Native Americans are prolly in a worse case for survival. They are on the worst lands, and only live via heavy subsidies. I don't see them thriving at all. As most of their survival skills are pretty much lost.

I think a little Rule of Cool would be necessary in that regard.
 
I know we're supposed to take White's work as canon, but I think that the population of the West Coast is far too small. California's Central Valley is one of the most fertile agricultural regions in the world, and the Willamette valley is highly productive also. Washington also produces a very large amount of grain that would go down the Columbia. The Pacific Northwest having as many people as rocky, infertile New England is ridiculous. And all of California having as many people as New York is just insane.

I agree, the bay is arguably the most protected harbor in the entire Western Hemisphere, and the valleys (Willamette and Central) would produce huge amounts of food for millions of people.
 
I know we're supposed to take White's work as canon, but I think that the population of the West Coast is far too small. California's Central Valley is one of the most fertile agricultural regions in the world, and the Willamette valley is highly productive also. Washington also produces a very large amount of grain that would go down the Columbia. The Pacific Northwest having as many people as rocky, infertile New England is ridiculous. And all of California having as many people as New York is just insane.
I disagree. California's population in 1850 was just over 92,000. It did triple in ten years, but this was entirely due to the gold rush. Even then, White has California's combined population at 1910 figures - for the record, New England had three times that many at the same period.

So I feel that his figures are relatively accurate.
 
Just want to say that Monday all entries for the Desert will be put up for their week-long final review, at the end of which they'll be added to the Submissions thread.

So if you have anything you want added, please speak up. (I am willing to meet BootonFace and taylortjc halfway and double the Republic of California's population, but any further would stretch things in my opinion).
 
Simply copying the 1900 population figures is an oversimplification IMO... in 1900 you had other things to consider, like the recent rapid settlement of the West and the fact that North America was an industrialized country, with that industry unevenly skewed toward the east. Medieval New England would probably have a population much lower than in 1900. California, having an established agricultural population (rather than a recently re-settled one), might well be higher.

Since I've more-or-less claimed the Free Zone, I will do my utmost to do the research and assemble a decent proposal on that empire.
 
So then how about:

c. 7,000,000 people for the combined Californias, and

c. 1,000,000 people for the combined New England republics?

This will make the Rep. of California a feudal state rather than a hydraulic state (or a hybrid of the two, like pre-Islamic Persia).
 
I had meant to include this map in my other post. Clearly, New England in 1900 was supporting a population that a Medieval economy could not support.

7494.jpg


Re: The government of the California Republic: I don't see that a bigger population necessarily means it must be decentralized. There are plenty of examples of centralized, high-population countries in history. China comes to mind. You would need a rigorous system of local administration, but it's still very much centered on the imperial government and not 'federalized' in any real way.
 
Re: The government of the California Republic: I don't see that a bigger population necessarily means it must be decentralized. There are plenty of examples of centralized, high-population countries in history. China comes to mind. You would need a rigorous system of local administration, but it's still very much centered on the imperial government and not 'federalized' in any real way.

I agree with Dmitri!
 
In order to maintain the irrigation systems that allow life to flourish in the desert, the kingdoms of the west strictly regulate the flow of water. The governor's Department of Public Works is constantly at work patching dams, fixing broken pumps and dredging canals. New water mains can only be cut after a careful environmental impact study assures the Department Secretary that the flow of precious water will not be reduced.
This absolute control over such a basic necessity of life has given the average western governor unchallengeable authority over his citizens. He is not only the head of state, he is also commander-in-chief and high priest rolled into one. The slightest insolence by a farmer can be punished by shutting off his water supply. Banishment results in more than mere homesickness; it invariably means a scortching death under the desert sun. Because all farms are located along well-mapped irrigation canals, no one can hide from the draft board, the state police or the tax collector.
In these hydraulic empires all power comes from above. Unlike the kingdoms of the East, there is no independent class of warlords to threaten the governor's position. Instead, the army is composed of Lifers: young boys taken from peasant households and raised in communal barracks to be soldiers. They are allowed no ties to the outside world. They are forced to renounce their parents and they are forbidden to marry. They remain warriors for the rest of their lives, rising through the ranks, and their only allegiance is to their comrades-in-arms and to the governor. Although they are lavishly rewarded for their service, there is still the constant threat of ambitious army officers staging a coup, and this has tended to change dynasties once every century or so.
The civil service is also staffed by men who have been raised from childhood for the job, but no usurping dynasty has ever risen from the bureaucracy because it is composed entirely of eunuchs. At first, the religions of the west imposed taboos on such willful and inhumane mutilation, but the need for a docile bureaucracy eventually overcame revulsion, and the religious leaders who continued to object were replaced by more agreeable colleagues.
The absolute authority enjoyed by hydraulic emperors mean that they are much more free to embark on whatever hare-brained scheme pops into their head. The can mobilize the entire peasantry for massively wasteful building projects such as the Pyramids of Albuquerque, the Sacramento Tower, the Floating Isles of the Salt Lake and the Los Angeles Labrynth. Also worth noting is that all the hydraulic empires have legalized polygamy because what fun is being Supreme Master of the Visible World if you can't have a harem?

Irrigation


Water is scarce in the Great Basin. Rainfall rarely comes, and when it does it often brings chaotic floods. Thus, unlike the fertile lands of the East, Westerners can't rely on rain for their crops. Thus, irrigation came into vogue, to the point that all people of the West, regardless of creed or ethnicity, are called 'Irrigators' by the Herdsmen and Northwesterners. With one exception, all major settlements are located on the snake-like rivers the crisscross the desert and provide water for irrigation.​

Food:
Due to the usually hot and arid climate, most irrigation food is that which doesn't need much in the way of water. Vegetables are rare, and one primarily sees wheat and corn as the grains of choice. Beef, mutton, and chicken are the primary meats. Beans are ubiquitous. Peppers are common and popular, due to their ability to thrive in arid enviroments. Dates are the most popular fruit. Dairy is almost universally goat-based. Some regions will have more unique crops - for example, the Boise River Valley grows potatoes, while California is near-legendary for her vineyards and citrus fruits, to the point that Napa vintage can be found as far away as Asia. Popular dishes include tacos and burritoes, potato salad, and chili (although more associated with the Herdsmen, chili requires Irrigator peppers and chilis to succesfully make). Much of the cuisine is, in fact, similar to Herdsman cuisine. Most beverages are made from goat milk - water being too valuable.​

And, of course, there is salt.​

Clothing:
Wool and Cotton are the main textiles, and the single most universal piece of clothing is the wool poncho. A man's poncho is his most important possession, and will often be decorated with symbols representing his family. Women will wear a similar garment, the serape. The more ornate a poncho or serape, the more powerful the wearer likely is. Under these garments, a person will often wear a simple loincloth or skirt, breeches being too restrictive in the hot sun. Sandals serve as footwear, and only the most destitute beggars won't wear makeup to protect their eyes. Men will wear a wide-brim straw hat, while women will wear a simple veil.​

Housing:
Houses are built from mudbrick, mixed with straw to strengthen it. Such houses prove to be durable in the arid climes, and keep the bright sun out. Only the wealthy build houses out of stone, and they build them for ostentatious reasons. Only in California is wood-based housing common, and even then they leave the Sacred Redwoods alone.​

Trade:
Salt. The entire trade economy of the Southwest runs on salt. It is the most valuable commodity on the continent, and most of it comes from Deseret and New Mexico. The great salt mines produce that which is more valuable than gold to send it to the somewhat salt-deprived Feudal Core in the east.​

Society:

The scarcity of water means that Irrigation politics is much more simple than others. In contrast to the heavily structured and layered nature of the East's feudalism, Westerm society has only two real groups - those who have, and those who have not. It is this nature that allows the Hydraulic Empires to exist. The main dividing lines are those of religion - the Mormons of Deseret, the New Agers of New Mexico, the Scientologists of the Californias, the Nevadan Heretics. Religion determines the differences amongst the empires - Mormonism, for example, does not endorse using eunuchs (officially), while New Agers believe women have innate healing properties and teach their womenfolk herbology. However, from the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City to Roswell, where the World of Man and the World of Elsewhere meet, to the Heretics' infamous City of Sin, one rule remains constant: He who rules the water, rules the people.

The State of New Mexico


Hear ye, all persons! Ye people as many as ye are! I have done this according to the design of my heart. ... I have restored that which was in ruins, I have raised up that which was unfinished since the Buddhists were in the midst of the Northland [Deseret], and the cowboys were in the midst of them, overthrowing that which was made, while they ruled in ignorance of the Aquarian Way. He did not do according to the divine command until my majesty. When I was firm upon the throne of Aquarius, I was ennobled until the two periods of years...I came as Alamagordo flaming against my enemies. My command stands firm like mountains, and the sun's disk shines and spreads rays overy the titulary of my august person, and my eagle rises high above the presidential banner unto all eternity.

--Final State of the Union inscription of President Bill Cisneros I
Located where several worlds meet, New Mexico is a land, both literally and figuratively, at a crossroads. Not 90 years ago the land colloquolly known as the Four Corners was riven by civil war, between the rival colonels of Santa Fe, Phoenix, and El Paso over who would sit on the throne in splendid Alburquerque. Lifers armed with bronze weapons ravaged the kingdom, causing the valuable rivers to run with blood. Worst of all, there was no President to perform the sacred rites to keep the Other at bay. Colonel Bill Cisnaros, the ruler of Phoenix, finally broke the stalemate a half-century ago. Already controlling the bulk of the kingdom's copper mines, thus forcing the other two claimaints to increasingly rely on Cowboy mercenaries, Bill launched a daring raid that seized the Cibola Salt Mine, completely disrupting his rivals' economy. After a few short battles he was able to enter Alburquerque and crown himself President, claiming a line of descent back to Pre-Regression Navajo rulers. He made the trip to Sacred Roswell, where the Other once touched the World of Man, and made the sacred rituals to keep the Greys placated. His final act before being buried in his pyramid was to resolve the succession issues that having multiple wives provided - upon his internment, his sons would race from Alburquerque to Roswell. The prince who arrived there first and completed the sacred rites would be hailed as President. The losers would be strangulated. And thus far, it has worked.

Specifics:


  • System of Government: Hydraulic Empire
    • Head of State:
      • President, chosen by and from the sons of the previous President by the ruling Cisnaros family after a special ceremony
  • Population: 950,000
  • Religion: New Age
    • Totemic Symbol: Zia Sun


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (The Mormons Post-Regression)

One of the few institutions to survive the Regression in North America was the Church of Latter-Day Saints - Mormon doctrine advised its parishioners to stock dry foods and supplies in the event of an emergency, and boy, did they come in handy when emergency came. Combined with Utah's relative isolation, flanked by the Rockies to the East and the Bonneville Salt Flats to the West, and the Mormons managed to weather the chaos in decent shape.

With the disintegration of influence from DC, or even Sacramento, the LDS Church came to be viewed as the only legitimate authority, and Deseret transformed from a de facto theocracy to a de jure one. The President of the Church was the President of the State, and Deseret truly became a Hydraulic Empire. The rigid structure of the church lent itself well to bureaucratic needs, and the congregations - Wards - dictate much of daily life, from courtship to diet to labor.

From the Regression to the Yaeger Conflict, the LDS church changed little. Alcohol is now allowed, so long as it is domestically produced (even before the Regression, Utah produced a significant Barley crop), although non-alcoholic bevearage like goat milk is still preferred, but tobacco is still banned - although more pragmatic Presidents have allowed foreign vintage and tobacco to travel along the trade routes that pass through Salt Lake City (after taxing the bejeezus out of them, of course). Influence from the compounds and the desire to be populous have lead to a reinstatement of polygamy.

The President is voted on by the ruling family (currently the Reids), who are often quite numerous. He is, officially, advised by 12 Elders, but the President wields considerable temporal and spiritual power, and over-ambitious Elders will often find themselves walking into Nevada, to put themselves at the tender mercies of the Heretics.

Mormonism thrives on conversion, and this makes the faith expansionist - a theme that has only increased since the Cowboys and Columbians were driven out. Conquered areas, called Stakes, are carved out from Deseret's neighbours to spread the Book of Mormon. There are currently only four Stakes, based off the pre-Regression states - Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, and Nevada (and Nevada only exists in a theoretical state) - but plans are in motion for new Stakes all the time. Stakes are formed when the Danite Templars (a misnomer originally used by non-Mormons) move into the territory. Menfolk who refuse to convert are put to the sword, women are given as prizes to the victors, and children are to be inducted into the Church. After eighty years of oppression and persecution by the Cowboys and Columbians - the so-called 'Diaspora' - Mormonism has become increasingly 'hardline.' The once-vaunted Zion's Legion may be only a shadow of its former glory, the Salt Lake Temple is now a ruin that is only slowly being rebuilt (the Logan Temple now serves as the current seat), and the Statue of Moroni now decorates some Columbian nobleman's garden, but the Church has survived, and it plans to keep on doing so.

Mormon holidays are roughly the same as Non-Denom holidays. Unlike the other three faiths of the Irrigators, Mormonism explicitly forbids castration.

The Church of Scientology

Definately one of the weirder developments in Post-Regression culture, especially from an Eastern standpoint, is the growth of Scientology as the de jure faith of the Californias. And yet, it is relatively easy to see how this happened, if not why. The old ways had clearly failed, and something new was needed. Scientology had been embraced by many wealthy and charismatic figures, and when all was said and done it proved to be a relatively easy sell, albeit one that took several generations to be fully ingrained in California.

In the modern, neo-medieval world, Scientology is synonymous with the Californias - it is the state faith of the Republic, and the Free Zone is an out and out theocracy. While the more ... controversial ... aspects of Scientology have fallen to the wayside, many concepts remain the same. Scientologists still believe they are reincarnated souls called thetans, sent to Earth millions of years ago by the galactic tyrant Xenu, and forced to wear physical bodies. The central focus of Scientology is, then, to achieve spiritual enlightement, and thus Apotheosis. Neomedieval Scientology is, thus, not really different from Gnosticism. There's no real secrecy about their beliefs like there was before, but access to the holy works is still strictly regulated.

Since the average dirt farmer can't focus on spiritual enlightement, he is allowed to increase his OT levels by helping his ruler increase his. The average Scientologist peasant's (clear's) life is focused around making sure Those Who Rule are content and well off, and in return his own spiritual well-being is cared for. So if the Duke of San Bernadino wants his physical remains to be interred in an opulent mausoleum, then so be it.

The holy days for Scientology are All Heroes' Day (February 22), Hubbard Day (March 13), Childrens' Day (March 24), Exhibition (April 20), Dianetics Day (May 9), Integrity Day (May 25), Auditor's Day (2nd Sunday of September), and Freedom Day (December 31, Oi!)

Politcally, the faith is heavily tied in with the Californian nobility. They serve as rulers and priests. That said, the nobles are still warriors first and foremost, so the day to day minutiae of governance, both secular and religious, is performed by eunuchs.

New Age

In the final days of Pre-Regression civilization, a movement began centered around the belief that humanity would go through a new spiritual phase, the so-called "Age of Aquarius", in the coming years. Called the New Age Movement, they began to congregate in the Southwest as the Regression approached. The new era wasn't the total shift in spiritual conscionous they envisioned, but none can deny the world did change.

In the following centuries, the New Age philosophy and theology obviously underwent revisions. The once freeform nature of the faith became more and more structured as those with water - and thus, power - declared their ideas to be doctrine and opponents' beliefs to be heretical. Many beliefs were co-opted from the Southwest Tribes, due to a belief that this would allow the New Agers to survive in the region. This proved to be incorrect, but the influence remains to this day.

The primary belief is the supremacy of a Sky Father, who rules everything. Below Him are the Earth Mother, who created everything, and the Great Spirits, personifications of nature who are prayed to by the Medicine Men for more specific favors. An observor would claim that this resembles the Catholics' belief in God, Virgin Mary, and the Saints, and would then declare that this is a relic from New Mexico's Latino population, but the New Agers deny any obvious similarities. For example, they point to their most holy ceremony, the Ghost Dance Ritual, or to their belief that gems contain healing properties.

New Age Medicine Men (Male) and Mediums (Female) are believed to have healing powers. While the mediums are simply beleived to heal by touch, the Medicine Men lead their village in rituals meant to cleanse the body - exercise, meditation, and therapy like herbal teas. Astrology also plays a huge role in the New Age - no one, from the lowliest slave to the most exalted ruler, starts his day without a horoscope reading.

The New Agers believe in reincarnation - everyone has a spirit guide, and the lessons learned from meditating on one's past lives are considered an important step in spiritual porgress. While they do believe women serve an important role in their faith, this is still a Hydraulic Empire, and irrigator society has little room for advancement regardless of gender - Mediums are largely overglorified masseuses who speak in tongues, and other women find themselves as beholden to their caste as the men do.

The New Age Movement has spread to the Oklahoman tribes, who incorporated it's methods with New Israelite beliefs, but is otherwise simply New Mexico's state religion.


Here there be Monsters: The Grey
At the back of every human's mind is the feeling that he or she is being watched. This expands to the faer that these watchers will seduce or kidnap the defenseless, drag them to their homes, and the poor soul is never heard from again. They have many names - elves, fey, sidhe, fairies, the Good Folk, the Gentry. But in the Southwest, one name surpasses all others: The Grey.

New Mexican art is surprisingly consistant on what the Grey look like - grey (obviously) skin, large black eyes, emaciated bodies, bald. They come from Elsewhere to kidnap lone humans and take the defenseless to their citadels. Some times, the human escapes and returns to the world of Man, where they quickly become valued as spirit mediums because of there experiances. But New Age mythology is repleat with stories of those who weren't so lucky.
As usual, red denotes revisions.

Well then, here are the entries on the West, put up for final review - California and Deseret aren't included because I'm awaiting Fals Dmitri's entry on the Free Zone, and most discussion on Deseret revolved around the religion rather than the country.

At the end of the week, if there are no disagreements, they will be added to the non-discussion thread.
 
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