Medieval America Tk II: Discussion Thread

[jmberry]

Will anything be salvaged from the old thread? I've been reading some of it these last couple of days (more than I ever read when it was active), and a lot of it is quite good. I especially love your treatment of the Trucker clans. Some other material is a little more forgettable, but some would be a shame to lose.

When we get to the Feudal Core, the entries ebated will be from the old thread (Although you're Hansa ideas are good enough that the Kingdom of Superior will probably be axed). The West Coast, however, wasn't really well thought out in the old thread, and I felt it was necessary to only use White's information for that.

And thanks for liking my trucker entry.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Snooty knightly types seem to be the ones running the entire eastern half of the continent, so there's no avoiding them, I'm afraid... but yeah, a bunch of France stereotypes probably not the best way to go.

maybe have it revert up to a certain point to colonial-era New France: have villages headed by a seigneur who is more an administrator then the armoured type knight with defence being assumed by a local militia made up of all the adult citizens. Maybe some people go back the coureur des bois way and take to the forest.

For some reason, I keep imagining that if there is some sort of Quebec King, his royal guard would be axemen with medievalised lumberjack suits.

 

[False Dmitri]

When we get to the Feudal Core, the entries ebated will be from the old thread (Although you're Hansa ideas are good enough that the Kingdom of Superior will probably be axed). The West Coast, however, wasn't really well thought out in the old thread, and I felt it was necessary to only use White's information for that.

And thanks for liking my trucker entry.

I'm a little confused about the current status, then. Are the Great Plains "finished," and now we're on the West Coast? Could we recap what's already known? The conversation already has moved in lots of directions. (I am partly at fault for that, I know.)

maybe have it revert up to a certain point to colonial-era New France: have villages headed by a seigneur who is more an administrator then the armoured type knight with defence being assumed by a local militia made up of all the adult citizens. Maybe some people go back the coureur des bois way and take to the forest.

For some reason, I keep imagining that if there is some sort of Quebec King, his royal guard would be axemen with medievalised lumberjack suits.

That's a really fun idea.

It is funny that the only thing many people care to know about Quebec is "Vous parlez tous Français"... and therefore the place can't possibly have a culture that's any different from France.

 

[jmberry]

I'm a little confused about the current status, then. Are the Great Plains "finished," and now we're on the West Coast? Could we recap what's already known? The conversation already has moved in lots of directions. (I am partly at fault for that, I know.)




That's a really fun idea.

It is funny that the only thing many people care to know about Quebec is "Vous parlez tous Français"... and therefore the place can't possibly have a culture that's any different from France.

To recap: There are seven (possibly eight) different parts of Medieval North America as White envisioned it (Note that there is some overlap):

General Information [Ongoing]: Warfare and Tech, Climate, Language, Politics, Trade and Economy, and Population and Race

The Plains [Complete]: Horse Archers, Tribalism, Herdsmen, New Israelites, Warfare and Tech

The Desert [Current]: Horse Archers, Hydraulic Empires, Scientology, New Age, Mormonism, 'Heresy', Irrigation, Deseret, New Mexico, The Californias

Pacific Northwest ('Cascadia'): Republics, Pikemen, Buddhism, Columbia, Yankee Lifestyle (Although I'd argue the Northwest is different enough to deserve its own lifestyle entry)

The Gulf: Population and Race, Dixie Lifestyle, Secretarial Government, Voodoo, Louisiana

Heartland ('The Feudal Core'): Population and Race, Dixie Lifestyle, Yankee Lifestyle, American Non-Denominational Christianity, Feudalism, Lancers (Knights), Feudalism, Iowa, The Lakes subregion, Tennessy subregion, Ohio subregion, Red River subregion, Piedmont subregion

Northeast: Pikemen, Republics, Non-Denom, the United States, Yankee Lifestyle, New Jersey, New England, 'East Heresy', Judaism

Notice there's no Canada entry or reference to New York. The remnant of Anglo-Canada would have been in the Lakes entry, but Catholicism would have had an entry of its own, so I suggest an eighth group would have looked like thus:

Greater St. Lawrence: Catholicism, Feudalism, Lancers, Yankee Lifestyle, Hunters Lifestyle, Language, Quebec, New York, the Maritimes


Personally I'm surprised we haven't had more comments on the Desert - that's the part that seems to cause people to internet rage the most.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

can we make proposal ? I have a few ideas for polities that could occupy the land we now know as Quebec.

 

[jmberry]

can we make proposal ? I have a few ideas for polities that could occupy the land we now know as Quebec.

Yes, you can.

 

[Stuyvesant]

One thing I want to say would be the Erie Canal would probably not function, (or at least the Locks.)

 

[False Dmitri]

The Desert [Current]: Horse Archers, Hydraulic Empires, Scientology, New Age, Mormonism, 'Heresy', Irrigation, Deseret, New Mexico, The Californias

I shared an idea about how Scientology came to be a state religion. I'll expand on that idea. Scientology has to grow from a small sect of a few hundred thousand to become the major religion of two empires. The most logical way to do it is with state support. Until relatively recently, I propose, the Californias were united in a single Republic that also included much of Baja California. The northern part - the Republic's territory today - was clearly the power center of the empire and the place from which all the ruling families came. The southern lobe, the current Free Zone, was administered by a separate government department, usually headed by a younger son of the Governor.

Scientology in these early days had a complicated status. Many of the prominent families around Sacramento followed it, especially the ones with genealogical roots in Los Angeles. Los Angeles, in fact, remained the center of the religion, but even there it did not claim a majority of the people as adherents. It was, as it had been before the Regression, practiced more in the upper strata of society than among the peasants. Different Governors seem to have had different attitudes toward Scientology, variously ignoring it or driving it underground; but records are spotty and the objective facts are hard to separate from the Church's own rather self-serving narratives.

That changed when the honorary captain of the governor's guard, head of a wealthy family of devout Scientologists who owned many estates in the south, carried out a coup against the governor, beginning the long age of the House of Etrabolta. The Church remembers this as a golden age when it was endowed with land and power and its leaders were welcome in the councils of the governor.

Later in the dynasty, California began to lose control of its peripheral areas. As its grip weakened, the ruling house named loyal allies to rule the outer districts in its name. The Church was the natural choice of vassal in the south, as by then it already controlled much of the land and wealth. As the empire crumbled into warring states, this fringe area remained stable - a Free Zone - under theocratic rule. By now the religion was firmly established at all levels of society, so when the California Republic came under a vigorous new dynasty, Scientology was the natural state religion. The new Republic never gained control of the lost peripheral areas, and indeed did not try very hard. The Free Zone has been an independent secondary power ever since. The Church and its Presidency have become as skilled at empiremanship as any gubernatorial House.

Personally I'm surprised we haven't had more comments on the Desert - that's the part that seems to cause people to internet rage the most.

Because of the religion thing? It seems like harmless fun to me.

I need to read more about Scientology, but I would like to build on your description to create a (relatively) non-dystopian version of it.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

I need to read more about Scientology, but I would like to build on your description to create a (relatively) non-dystopian version of it.

maybe have it get the whole "smithing the athetans" out of their systems during the period you described above and then have an internal reformation preaching the pro-active aspect of the church so that they mellow out a bit by the time of their present.

 

[False Dmitri]

maybe have it get the whole "smithing the athetans" out of their systems during the period you described above and then have an internal reformation preaching the pro-active aspect of the church so that they mellow out a bit by the time of their present.

Definitely. A religion almost has to mellow when it makes the transition from small, devoted sect to widespread faith of the people. I like your word proactive - I know that here and now, Scientology is very reactive, defined by its opposition to things like modern psychology. That's going to change when it is the only system in town, and indeed when modern psychology no longer really exists.

Jmberry's idea is that it remains a religion where most of the really devoted followers are the elites. I want to find out more specifically then how the peasants fulfill their spiritual needs within a Scientologist system.

 

[jmberry]

I posted a bit on that in the entry:

Since the average dirt farmer can't focus on spiritual enlightement, he is allowed to increase his OT levels by helping his ruler increase his. The average Scientologist peasant's (clear's) life is focused around making sure Those Who Rule are content and well off, and in return his own spiritual well-being is cared for. So if the Duke of San Bernadino wants his physical remains to be interred in an opulent mausoleum, then so be it.

That was taken from Ancient Egyptian Polytheism, where the explanation for the pyramids was that if Pharaoh entered the Field of Reeds, everyone did as well.

 

[False Dmitri]

I posted a bit on that in the entry:



That was taken from Ancient Egyptian Polytheism, where the explanation for the pyramids was that if Pharaoh entered the Field of Reeds, everyone did as well.

Yes, I really like that part. I'm also interested in how scientology, added to the underlying culture (heavy substrate of Mexican Catholicism), would impact the daily folk beliefs and practices of the people, at the village level.

So what do you think of my partial history?

 

[jmberry]

Somebody, Kaurne I believe, said we shouldn't rely on modern borders for the neo-Medieval kingdoms. Thankfully, the National Weather Service divides counties by geography instead of politics for its purposes, so we can now get an idea of what these new countries would look like.

 

[jmberry]

I shared an idea about how Scientology came to be a state religion. I'll expand on that idea. Scientology has to grow from a small sect of a few hundred thousand to become the major religion of two empires. The most logical way to do it is with state support. Until relatively recently, I propose, the Californias were united in a single Republic that also included much of Baja California. The northern part - the Republic's territory today - was clearly the power center of the empire and the place from which all the ruling families came. The southern lobe, the current Free Zone, was administered by a separate government department, usually headed by a younger son of the Governor.

Scientology in these early days had a complicated status. Many of the prominent families around Sacramento followed it, especially the ones with genealogical roots in Los Angeles. Los Angeles, in fact, remained the center of the religion, but even there it did not claim a majority of the people as adherents. It was, as it had been before the Regression, practiced more in the upper strata of society than among the peasants. Different Governors seem to have had different attitudes toward Scientology, variously ignoring it or driving it underground; but records are spotty and the objective facts are hard to separate from the Church's own rather self-serving narratives.

That changed when the honorary captain of the governor's guard, head of a wealthy family of devout Scientologists who owned many estates in the south, carried out a coup against the governor, beginning the long age of the House of Etrabolta. The Church remembers this as a golden age when it was endowed with land and power and its leaders were welcome in the councils of the governor.

Later in the dynasty, California began to lose control of its peripheral areas. As its grip weakened, the ruling house named loyal allies to rule the outer districts in its name. The Church was the natural choice of vassal in the south, as by then it already controlled much of the land and wealth. As the empire crumbled into warring states, this fringe area remained stable - a Free Zone - under theocratic rule. By now the religion was firmly established at all levels of society, so when the California Republic came under a vigorous new dynasty, Scientology was the natural state religion. The new Republic never gained control of the lost peripheral areas, and indeed did not try very hard. The Free Zone has been an independent secondary power ever since. The Church and its Presidency have become as skilled at empiremanship as any gubernatorial House.



Because of the religion thing? It seems like harmless fun to me.

I need to read more about Scientology, but I would like to build on your description to create a (relatively) non-dystopian version of it.

Looks good, although 'Free Zone' is an actual term in Scientology - they don't believe in the 'Pay as you go' system - in fact, the theme of everything west of the Mississippi seems to be 'The fringe groups took over their mainstream counterparts.'

 

[jmberry]

I am opening discussion on the Northwest. To that effect, I am quoting King of Malta's post on his ideas of the Cascadian City-States.

Cities and States and City-States: Cascadia

When one thinks of city-states in ancient history one must either be drawn to the ancient cities of Greece or the First Middle Age cities of Italy. Despite being called City-States these political entities were by no means constricted to city limits and held other polities under their sway.

The City-States of the Pacific Northwest are no different then any of their predecessors. Though if one was to classify the cities of the region based on power and influence, three cities would stand to be the most powerful and perhaps independent minded. The 'Great Cities' being Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver. Judging on population, political and economic influence, and regional character these three cities stand out above the rest. Throughout the New Middle Ages they have the greatest influence on the region and neighboring regions.

Though even still their are other smaller city-states often enough living in the shadow of these three giants. Rarely gaining influential status due to internal weakness (low population, poor economic availability, and location) or external threat (military invasion often enough). Such 'Lesser Cities' include Astoria, Victoria, The Dalles, and others. This of course does not mean that they are able to influence the Three Greats in more subtle ways to gain for themselves. Seattle and Vancouver constantly vie with one another for the good graces of Victoria given its location close to the Pacific opening of the Pugent Sound via the Strait of Juan de Fuca(the city could and has allied with either power constantly to deny or grant Ship passage. The Strait of Georgia being a much, much dangerous and less used route due to Salish Raiders). Others though such as Olympia do fade into the background.

Competition between the Three Greats has a deal to do with their own geographic location on the Pugent Sound and the Columbia/Williamette River...


----

More on that later, but I have given thought on the Eco-American Buddhism and to me it seems likely to most resemble Japanese Shintoism. Shintoism is a very Eco Oriented religion. Many or Most of its shrines and holy sites being large and old trees or coastal bays. The Natural Spirits of the Land are seen as Kami or gods. Shintoism also heavily absorbed concepts of Buddhism when it arrived in Japan that often enough it is hard to find where Shintoism and Japanese Buddhism begins and ends. Though just as likely it could resemble Chinese Daoism as well.

 

[taylortjc]

With big cities and population centers being bad in any apocalypse case, I have to wonder that after whatever happened younger generations would see these places as evil and stay away from them, and mid sized cities like Astoria would be hugely prominent compared to the ghost cities of old America

Also I don't see Dalles being even a small power, to enclosed, bad terrain and such.

 

[Dante]

Those big cities become big cities for a reason, they are located in important places such as near good harbors or as natural centers of trade. I can see them being just as important in neo-medeval times.

 

[False Dmitri]

Those big cities become big cities for a reason, they are located in important places such as near good harbors or as natural centers of trade. I can see them being just as important in neo-medeval times.

Some yes, some no. Big cities that are close to rivers or important pre-industrial resources, definitely. The old map IIRC has New Orleans and Detroit as the two biggest. Cities that are near industrial-era resources, or which don't have anything of value in a medieval world, will shrink considerably and maybe only have a memory of what they once were. I see Los Angeles, for example, as something like the old episcopal cities of medieval Germany: there was a time when it was the biggest city around, but there is no economic reason for it to exist any more; it keeps slogging along because it has some traditional political importance. When I described Sudbury in my "Hansa" post on the previous page, I had the same thing in mind.

 

[taylortjc]

Some yes, some no. Big cities that are close to rivers or important pre-industrial resources, definitely. The old map IIRC has New Orleans and Detroit as the two biggest. Cities that are near industrial-era resources, or which don't have anything of value in a medieval world, will shrink considerably and maybe only have a memory of what they once were. I see Los Angeles, for example, as something like the old episcopal cities of medieval Germany: there was a time when it was the biggest city around, but there is no economic reason for it to exist any more; it keeps slogging along because it has some traditional political importance. When I described Sudbury in my "Hansa" post on the previous page, I had the same thing in mind.

Thank you! And I see Seattle as being a minor city, with Astoria as a major one, Seattle only got big as a gateway to Alaska, with the northern reaches inhabited by barbarians and the city itself abandoned during the apocalypse or event whatever you wanna call it, no reason to reinhabite the place because other cities would haven risen up in the interim.

Which brings me to Astoria, situated on the coast and further south, near the major population centers in the willamette valley, this I believe would be a prominent city state fighting wars between itself and Portland over the valley.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

I'll post some proposals for the ex-quebec regions. They are based on a mixture of current (since I read The Event is assumed to occur in the present) and colonial new france which to me make a lot more sense then people in the future purposefully cracking open the history books and trying to copy medieval france.

If things clashes too much with established canons, let me know.

Note: the weird spelling is not arbitrary but is based on current day pronounciation of certain by someone speaking joual. It is meant to represent the phonetic shift that would invariably occur with 900 years evolution.

*****​

Kingdom of LAURASSY

History
Legends has it that centuries ago, a great catastrophy fell upon the land, tearing down the empires of the days including an empire of the quebecois a proud, fierce and sometime quarrelous people. Out of the chaos that followed this catastrophy emerged a leader who managed to unite the lands along the st. lawrence river as the Kingdom of Lawrencia with him as its guide as King Lawrence the First (many foreign historians believes it might have been an assumed name taken on for propaganda purposes). From his castle in Mourial, he established The Law which he then spread by the sword and the pen of diplomacy, pushing back the roaming bands of mauntards who preyed upon villagers. Story tells that at his funeral, a large man made of snow came to carry his remains to a beautiful hidden castle made entirely of ice where he still lays garded by 7 maidens.

Lawrence's descendants proved less able then him both as politicians and warlords and were not able to expend the kingdom any further after his death, leaving a patch of lawless mauntards territory on the south shore of the seaway. The kingdom was stable for centuries but eventualy stagnation sat in and after some internal revolts, more then half of the territory was lost in a short while.

Geography
The kingdom currently occupy most of the saint lawrence valley. Its capital was formaly in Mourial but it was felt by many that too much power was being concentrated in one place leading to the capital being moved to Quaybeyque-a-vieyotte.

The local weather condition makes upkeeping of long stretches of roads arduous so that only the Chmey-dzu-roay which runs on the north shore of the St-Lawrence between the capital and Mourial is maintained by the royal Voayrie. As it is up to the local seynyeur to pay for the maintenance of local roads under his jurisdiction, the quality of these roads vary widly between seynyeuries depending on his stingyness and how much he thinks he can get away with.

Outside of winter time, people often bypass roads altogether and use the seaway and smaller waterways extensively to travel within the kingdom. A team of trained paddlers in a birch canoe can usualy make the trip between the capital and Mourial in a few days while a slower moving ship can take up to 3 weeks.

Government
The kingdom is an autocratic monarchy currently lead by Queen Pauline III. The land is divided into a number of Eymerceay (given in apanage to a Prayfat) and subdivided into Seynyeuries headed by a Seynyeure. As apanages, both are revocable at whim (although the seynyeurie can be bought and sold while it is held) but in practice they have become hereditary with the eldest child simply assuming the post at the death of the previous one.

The inhabitants of a seynyeurie elects a number of Aycheuveyns, the number of which is based on the population's size. These Aycheuveyns have no legislative powers but serves as advisors to the local seynyeure. They also elect a daputay to represent a number of neighbouring seynyeuries at the Zaytageun who likewise advises the monarch. The zaytageun meets at least twice a year to present petitions to the monarch from their part of the kingdom but can be call out at any time at the monarch request to advise him on a particular subject. The daputays majority opinion is in no way legaly binding but for practical reasons, the monarch seldom wholy disregard especialy since the loss of Sagamy and Arcady.

Military
The only permanent part of the royal army is the Royal Guard which is paid for directly by the royal coffers and is permanently garrisoned in the capital except for those who accompany the monarch on his travels. His elite bodyguard are the bucheux, recognisable by their ceremonial axes and red and black checkered tunics.

Within a seynyeurie, a captain of the militia (A veteran of the royal guard who was honourably discharged and enobled) trains the local adult population assisted by a small cadre of sergeants. These companies of militia are meant to show up and train on a regular basis. Unlike the Royal Guard, they are unpaid (though certain expenses are covered when on duty) and are known to be less then cooperative when having to serve for an extented period outside of their seynyeurie. For this reason, when in need, the monarch usualy prefers to rely on volunteers.

Nobility
Within the kingdom, nobility is the notion that a person belongs to a special class within society based on the services rendered to it. membership then is based on occupying a function and is not, in theory, hereditary. In practice however, members of the same family will often succeed their father in the same or equivalent post so that while people can gain (or sometime lose) their status of noble, a number of families have held on for centuries leading them to be considered "Noble Families".
Nobility grants certain privileges, first among them an exemption from the corvés and the taxes deemed ordinary. It also grant the right to bear a sword when out and about (low class members all carries knives for practicle reason but the blade must be no more then the width of the palm of his or her hand) and preseance during events. Other advantages are related to the specific post they occupy.

nobles falls within the folowing 3 groups:

- nobility of sword: gained upon ataining a certain rank or as a reward for military actions

- nobility of quill: gained by high ranking civil servants

- nobility of robe: gained by high ranking members of the church's hierarchy