Medieval America Tk II: Discussion Thread

[Caesar Biden]

I hope it's allright if I contribute some. Since I live in the Great Lakes area, I might as well try to focus on my own state and build off of this:

The State of Wisconsin once acted as the primary power of the western Lakes, with near total control of Lake Superior and as a stopover point for the fur trade from the Minnesotan and Canadian wilds beyond it. However, after the invasion of the Iowans and the conquest of the traditional powerbase of Madison, internal divisions have weakened this position. The governor currently resides in the city of Green Bay, and intends to extend gubernational control over the Superian trade through his control of the northeast and the peninsula of Superior. Milwaukee, a prominent member of the Lakeleague threatened by possible incursions of Iowan-sworn Chicago, Michigan, and even Ohio, is reluctant to surrender its own role in this trade as well as resenting the increased focus to the north at the expense of the southern former center of the nation. To the west, in the lands that we would call Minnesota, local small settlements and trading posts also feel alienated with Wisconsinite rule, and occasionally rebel or cause problems for the Governor. On the border, southern nobles clamor for an end to the tribute paid to Iowa and a war to reconquer the traditional capitol and lands of the State, hoping to return to their eminent position as the center of administration and trade through the state and church's power. Until these divisions are settled, Wisconsin can only act as a reactive player in the great political game of the Lakes, rather than an active player.

So, if it's all right, I'd like to add a little bit more to the area. Some of this might contradict a little, but I'd like to add what I can.

Culture

The Cultures of the Western Great Lakes are divided into six major groups:

Minnesotan- a culture stretching from Eau Claire to Thunder Bay, Minnesotans are one of the biggest cultural groups in the region. Not so long ago, they were littered across Iowan territory as well, but in recent years the Iowans have driven out the Minnesotans into what we would call Western Wisconsin. This has created even more tensions in the region, as Minnesotans now want to join their state centered in Duluth.

Minnesotan culture is one largely of hospitality and optimism. They are very close to their Wisconsinite and Illinoisan cousins, but in many ways they differ. Although Minnesotans are predominantly non-denominational christian, their way of life shows signs of Eastern Buddhism and spiritual awakening. However, Minnesotans have also become focused on retaking their old lands, particularly their old capital, St.Paul.

Wisconsinite- Wisconsinite culture spans from St.Ignace to southern Madison. Some of this are has been taken by the Iowans, and this has infuriated and humiliated Wisconsinites everywhere. Not only is this city the center of Wisconsinite culture, it is also the center of their branch of the catholic faith, and Wisconsinites are up and arms to retake the city.

The Wisconsinites are incredibly close to Minnesotans in culture, but different in subtle ways. Much more influenced by Eastern Feudal thought, they have become much more practical and focused on class than their northern cousins. Eastern Buddhism is also not very prevalent here, and Wisconsinites are a majorly Catholic nation. They claim that Madison is the center of the New Catholic faith.
Iowan- Iowan culture is centered around, well, Iowa, but recently they have moved into parts of Missouri and evicted Minnesotans living in Iowa. They have been a rising power for some time, despite efforts by their neighbors to stop them.

Iowan culture has been heavily influenced by cowboy culture to the west. However, over time, Iowans have become much more militarized than the cowboys to their west, and have grown more and more ambitious. However, it seems they have hit a limit to much of their expansion.
Illinoisan- more tomorrow
Michigan- more tomorrow
Ohioan- more tomorrow




On Minnesota:

The state of Minnesota was once a prominent power in the great lakes region, with control of important regions such as the base of the Mississippi and the areas around Lake Superior. It's domains stretched from the Dakotas to the Northern Half of Iowa to towns such as Thunder Bay in the North to Eau Claire in the East. It enjoyed decent relations with it's neighbors, though the states of Illinois and Wisconsin were considered its rivals.

When the Cowboy Invasions hit, Minnesota was devastated. Many Minnesotans in Iowa and the Dakotas fled to the safer eastern parts of the state (what we would consider western wisconsin) and the state fell apart. Much of this state was annexed by the State of Illinois and the State of Wisconsin, and the much of the rest was taken by the cowboys.

Today, the state of Minnesota is much smaller, with a capital centered in Duluth but ambitions centered on St.Paul. The population is rather small in the areas they control, but they keep a very large military for their size.

The Minnesotan state has always been very unique, with strong, centralized power centered around the Governor-King. They are much less feudal than their neighbors. Just like much else in Minnesota, the system of government has stood at the crossroads between the plains and the east, and then chosen its own way.


And then a look at Wisconsin currently, building off what I said about Minnesota:

The state of Wisconsin, although well placed geographically, suffers from numerous problems. The territroy of Iowa is the greatest of these, having already taken much of the Wisconsinite's lands, is now looking to annex even more of Wisconsin. Currently, the governors of Wisonsin, Missouri and Ohio are in a coalition to try to contain the Iowan threat, but even so Iowan invasion remains a constant fear of not only the common folk, but the ones in power as well.

Much, MUCH more on all of this tomorrow, along with figures on population and just about everything else. I especially want to talk about the Lakeleague and how they hold power, even circumventing nobles and governor-kings.

Feedback is very much appreciated. I hope Jord doesn't mind me adding on, I just want to flesh out the whole thing. Also, this is relevant.

G'night

 

[False Dmitri]

Florida's fine for agriculture. It's got a long growing season and while the soil in some areas is sandy, that's still fine for plenty of crops, like citrus and cattle. Also, I know for a fact that there are varieties of strawberries and blueberries here that can stand the climate and soil. The only major crop here that wouldn't grow with Medieval technology are tomatoes. The major drawback of Florida, especially the southern part, is that it's hot and pestilent. So is West Africa, and they had plenty of people in medieval times. Before the Europeans arrived, there was about the same density of Indian population in the area as further north.

I'm finding 100- to 200,000 people in prehistoric (meaning pre-1500) Florida. Their agriculture would obviously be less intensive than Medieval-style agriculture, with less variety of plants and no livestock, so it does stand to reason that Florida would support more. But it does not appear to have supported a million people at that time.

 

[Flashman]

I'm finding 100- to 200,000 people in prehistoric (meaning pre-1500) Florida. Their agriculture would obviously be less intensive than Medieval-style agriculture, with less variety of plants and no livestock, so it does stand to reason that Florida would support more. But it does not appear to have supported a million people at that time.

Shall we say six hundred thousand considering its population in 1913? And somewhat like the Riverlands in Westeros, it will be at a disadvantage of being between Non-Denom and Voodoo states.

 

[Asdfthemovie]

I'm finding 100- to 200,000 people in prehistoric (meaning pre-1500) Florida. Their agriculture would obviously be less intensive than Medieval-style agriculture, with less variety of plants and no livestock, so it does stand to reason that Florida would support more. But it does not appear to have supported a million people at that time.

However, increasing technology can, especially from prehistoric to medieval, really increase carrying capacity. During the Ostsiedlung, a far shorter technological leap, Saxony's population increased by tenfold, sixfold in western Galicia, and doubled in Bohemia. The technological leap between Stone Age agriculture (which was what the Timacua, Tequesta, Calusa, and other tribes were at) and high Medieval agriculture, is much more, and could easily support an 8-9 times greater carrying capacity. And Florida did take a proportionally large hit. The former USA's population reduced to a fifth of its former size, but Florida's population reduced to 1/14. Florida is, contrary to the popular portrayal, not just swamps. Most of the land is naturally covered in pine flatwoods, very similar to Georgia.

Shall we say six hundred thousand considering its population in 1913? And somewhat like the Riverlands in Westeros, it will be at a disadvantage of being between Non-Denom and Voodoo states.

The Florida Senate is quite religiously divided, and fights break out almost as often as in the Taiwanese parliament. But add to Non-Denom and Voodoo Catholicism, in the south, and Baptism in northern Florida. Northern Florida has the second-largest Baptist presence, second to Georgia. Many counts actually follow the Baptist heresy, and resist attempts to start an inquisition.

 

[Flashman]

The Florida Senate is quite religiously divided, and fights break out almost as often as in the Taiwanese parliament. But add to Non-Denom and Voodoo Catholicism, in the south, and Baptism in northern Florida. Northern Florida has the second-largest Baptist presence, second to Georgia. Many counts actually follow the Baptist heresy, and resist attempts to start an inquisition.

The hell you talking about, Baptist Heresy? According to canon, no state in the Eastern US follows anything other then the Non-Denominational Church (Well, except for the slight Voodoo presence on the Gulf and the Catholics in Quebec). I would except isolated Baptist Communes out in the swamps or the pines, but no actualy states or respected individuals. Besides, Florida is depicted by White as being solidly in the US sphere- and having the lowest population. So it's canon. Therefore, I propose we go for a 'Wild West in the Jungle/Swamp' type thing.

 

[Asdfthemovie]

The hell you talking about, Baptist Heresy? According to canon, no state in the Eastern US follows anything other then the Non-Denominational Church (Well, except for the slight Voodoo presence on the Gulf and the Catholics in Quebec). I would except isolated Baptist Communes out in the swamps or the pines, but no actualy states or respected individuals. Besides, Florida is depicted by White as being solidly in the US sphere- and having the lowest population. So it's canon. Therefore, I propose we go for a 'Wild West in the Jungle/Swamp' type thing.

In the old thread, in the Two Carolinas article, they said that Southern preachers were usually at odds with the Non-denom heads in Washington. That's pretty darn close to heresy, and since medieval heretics tended to be more "fundamentalist" than their Catholic counterparts, and the Non-Denoms are sort of like Catholics, fundies would tend to be heretics in the Non-denom eyes. The Baptists are the largest fundamentalist church in the South, so they would be the most obvious choice for widespread heresies. Also, I said that there were Baptist heretics in the article, and no one objected to them then. White never said that Florida was in the US sphere, only that Jacksonville was. Jacksonville is in the US, but also Florida. Lots of things like that happened during the middle ages. I actually like the Baptist commune ideas, but remember that most of the counties are around that size. The pine flatwoods aren't very dense in Florida, and a horse could canter through them, so it wouldn't be easy to keep a commune isolated. I think that it could happen if Florida was a little underpopulated for its carrying capacity, so what about 1 million total, just to make the isolated communes happen?The area breakdowns are like this: 150,000 in Miami Ridge, 45,000 in the Nepals Ridge area (from the Caloosahatchee to the swamp) 30,000 between those two regions, mostly in Imocali and around Lake Okeechobee, 10,000 in the Keys, 185,000 in the Kissimee valley and St. Johns valley up to Duval, 140,000 in the Space coast up to Duval, 225,000 between Gainesville and the Caloosahatchee, and 215,000 in Northern Florida, between the Apalachicola and the Atlantic.

 

[Flashman]

In the old thread, in the Two Carolinas article, they said that Southern preachers were usually at odds with the Non-denom heads in Washington. That's pretty darn close to heresy, and since medieval heretics tended to be more "fundamentalist" than their Catholic counterparts, and the Non-Denoms are sort of like Catholics, fundies would tend to be heretics in the Non-denom eyes. The Baptists are the largest fundamentalist church in the South, so they would be the most obvious choice for widespread heresies. Also, I said that there were Baptist heretics in the article, and no one objected to them then. White never said that Florida was in the US sphere, only that Jacksonville was. Jacksonville is in the US, but also Florida. Lots of things like that happened during the middle ages. I actually like the Baptist commune ideas, but remember that most of the counties are around that size. The pine flatwoods aren't very dense in Florida, and a horse could canter through them, so it wouldn't be easy to keep a commune isolated. I think that it could happen if Florida was a little underpopulated for its carrying capacity, so what about 1 million total, just to make the isolated communes happen?The area breakdowns are like this: 150,000 in Miami Ridge, 45,000 in the Nepals Ridge area (from the Caloosahatchee to the swamp) 30,000 between those two regions, mostly in Imocali and around Lake Okeechobee, 10,000 in the Keys, 185,000 in the Kissimee valley and St. Johns valley up to Duval, 140,000 in the Space coast up to Duval, 225,000 between Gainesville and the Caloosahatchee, and 215,000 in Northern Florida, between the Apalachicola and the Atlantic.

The old thread is non-canon. This is a revamp, and is simply building on White's work. THere is the beggining of Heresy in the south, however everyone is still Non-Denom. No actual states would follow anything else, but isolated tribes in the swamps and the Appalachians all across the East wo

And according to White, it is very low population, so yeah. It works, but again, an actual STATE could not exist with another faith- from his maps it's clearly in non-denom orbit, considering the only marked states were US Colonies.

And since the population was 800 000 in 1913, one million still seems to high to me.

 

[Asdfthemovie]

The old thread is non-canon. This is a revamp, and is simply building on White's work. THere is the beggining of Heresy in the south, however everyone is still Non-Denom. No actual states would follow anything else, but isolated tribes in the swamps and the Appalachians all across the East wo

And according to White, it is very low population, so yeah. It works, but again, an actual STATE could not exist with another faith- from his maps it's clearly in non-denom orbit, considering the only marked states were US Colonies.

And since the population was 800 000 in 1913, one million still seems to high to me.

Where did he say that? I also noticed that in his mp of the states, almost all of the Floridian Peninsula was a swamp. This is not true, so I think we can increase the population in order to offset his ignorance of all of Florida outside the Everglades.

 

[Asdfthemovie]

And the Baptist heretics just make sense. You can't expect to merge so many diverse doctrines together and not expect very many fundamentalist holdouts, especially when we're dealing with the Baptists.

 

[Flashman]

And the Baptist heretics just make sense. You can't expect to merge so many diverse doctrines together and not expect very many fundamentalist holdouts, especially when we're dealing with the Baptists.

It's canon. The project is to an extent tongue-and-cheap. He wanted to make the US Rome, and its former territories in the East to be basically Catholic, and so it was. Scientologist Pharoahs and Asian Pac NW makes just as much sense. He was obviously laying the groundwork for a future heresy through his mentions of Southern Religious conflict with DC and the various Snake Heresies (again, tongue in cheek), but it has not eh happened.

I don't disagree with holdouts- I disagree with a major state actually being non-non-denom.

 

[Flashman]

Where did he say that? I also noticed that in his mp of the states, almost all of the Floridian Peninsula was a swamp. This is not true, so I think we can increase the population in order to offset his ignorance of all of Florida outside the Everglades.

I'll have to dig up the population map but I am certain of it.

Good point.

And though it is non canon the What's Next blog is an excellent resource.

http://feudalamerica.blogspot.com/2014/04/comparing-states.html?m=1

 

[Asdfthemovie]

It's canon. The project is to an extent tongue-and-cheap. He wanted to make the US Rome, and its former territories in the East to be basically Catholic, and so it was. Scientologist Pharoahs and Asian Pac NW makes just as much sense. He was obviously laying the groundwork for a future heresy through his mentions of Southern Religious conflict with DC and the various Snake Heresies (again, tongue in cheek), but it has not eh happened.

I don't disagree with holdouts- I disagree with a major state actually being non-non-denom.

Not a major state, unless you count some North Floridan counts as a major state.

 

[Asdfthemovie]

I'll have to dig up the population map but I am certain of it.

Good point.

And though it is non canon the What's Next blog is an excellent resource.

http://feudalamerica.blogspot.com/2014/04/comparing-states.html?m=1

That Blog post states that Florida had a 200% population decrease, which is not logical. Even Arizona is only 96%. Most of Florida's land is arable, which gives it a huge advantage over Arizona. The reason that FL had a low population before air conditioning was because the Europeans couldn't take the heat. Populations are not mobile in medieval times, so those that survived the collapse would be, after some generations, just as heat-tolerant as West Africans. Not to mention that Florida has large Haitian and Cuban first-generation immigrant populations, who are already heat-tolerant enough to live in Florida.

 

[Flashman]

Also consider how much of the Floridian population is vacationers/ retirees.

 

[Asdfthemovie]

32.11% is above 50 years old.

 

[Asdfthemovie]

Cattle Trade

The cattle trade, one of the largest trade routes in medieval america, starts in the cattle-growing regions of the Great Plains. There are a few million herders in that region, and most of them raise cattle, along with sheep and horses. While most of them are subsistence herders, they still want the products of civilization: iron and steel tools, wine and other luxury foods, and status symbols for the chieftains. The trade starts out with tribes going into one of the trading posts on the major tributaries of the Mississippi, and trading excess cattle and horses for the products of civilization. When enough cows have accumulated at the trading post, the trading posts send people to shepherd vast herds of cows to one of many locations. If they are north of the Ozarks, they generally send them to either St. Louis or Chicago on the hoof. In each of those cities, there are large cattle markets, where various slaughterhouses in the city buy cows and kill them. After preserving the meat, St. Louis sends beef up and down the Mississippi and Ohio rivers. In Chicago, they ship to an area encompassing the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence. South of the Ozarks, popular destinations include Memphis, Little Rock, and Shreveport. Each of those sells to various places along the Mississippi, and through New Orleans to the Gulf. The next-largest cattle-raising area is Northern and Central Florida. In those regions, Counts sell cattle to slaughterhouses in either Jaxinvil, Tampa, or other coastal ports. The Jaxinvil beef is sold to the East Coast, the Tampa beef is sold along the Gulf.

 

[Flashman]

The cattle trade, one of the largest trade routes in medieval america, starts in the cattle-growing regions of the Great Plains. There are a few million herders in that region, and most of them raise cattle, along with sheep and horses. While most of them are subsistence herders, they still want the products of civilization: iron and steel tools, wine and other luxury foods, and status symbols for the chieftains. The trade starts out with tribes going into one of the trading posts on the major tributaries of the Mississippi, and trading excess cattle and horses for the products of civilization. When enough cows have accumulated at the trading post, the trading posts send people to shepherd vast herds of cows to one of many locations. If they are north of the Ozarks, they generally send them to either St. Louis or Chicago on the hoof. In each of those cities, there are large cattle markets, where various slaughterhouses in the city buy cows and kill them. After preserving the meat, St. Louis sends beef up and down the Mississippi and Ohio rivers. In Chicago, they ship to an area encompassing the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence. South of the Ozarks, popular destinations include Memphis, Little Rock, and Shreveport. Each of those sells to various places along the Mississippi, and through New Orleans to the Gulf. The next-largest cattle-raising area is Northern and Central Florida. In those regions, Counts sell cattle to slaughterhouses in either Jaxinvil, Tampa, or other coastal ports. The Jaxinvil beef is sold to the East Coast, the Tampa beef is sold along the Gulf.

I liked it,till the end.

What makes Florida the second biggest cattle market? How much grazing land is there? What makes it better then, say, Kentucky?

But anyways, we should do a trade route map- it'll help us to find what cities would survive the Great Plains.

 

[Flashman]

Also, a couple of things on population. I dug up one of Whites maps- Florida has no cities with over 25,000 people.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/medvam/images/eastmap.gif

And not sure about this, but this map looks reasonable-

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/medvam/images/soil.gif

 

[Asdfthemovie]

I liked it,till the end.

What makes Florida the second biggest cattle market? How much grazing land is there? What makes it better then, say, Kentucky?

But anyways, we should do a trade route map- it'll help us to find what cities would survive the Great Plains.

Cattle were one of the first crops that were grown in Florida, and the pine flatwoods of Florida are very open. They're full of tall grass, and early settlers said that you could "drive a wagon through it. That's a good environment for a cow, so it stands that Florida would have many cattle. Can you think of another area that could supply more cattle? If you can, I'll edit the post.

 

[Asdfthemovie]

Also, a couple of things on population. I dug up one of Whites maps- Florida has no cities with over 25,000 people.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/medvam/images/eastmap.gif

And not sure about this, but this map looks reasonable-

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/medvam/images/soil.gif

It doesn't. Jaxinvil has about 15-20,000 and Miami City is 10,000.
For the next map, that again depicts the well-drained pine flatwoods as swamps.