Medieval America Tk II: Discussion Thread

Heresy in the West, Part Two- Las Vegas, the Fabulous

As the influx of rapers, thieves and run of the mill heretics to Las Vegas was just as bad as one would expect- the Tribes were horrified of the outsiders, and likewise. Violence drove people to places of safety- many went to the Fort Hoova, which controlled the flow of water out of Lake Mead and into the Colorado, allowing it to have dominance over the farmsteads around lake Mead. Others would settle in those fertile farmsteads, while still others try to head North across the deserts to civilized lands. But one spot in this desert was given a wide berth, by the tribals and the New Arrivals alike.

Las Vegas.

The city was cursed, said the locals. A sinful place, a Sodom that showed everything wrong with the world, that brought the displeasure of the Heavens upon civilization. Though the still and glass among the ruins was valuable, no natives dare take it, for fear of curses on them and there children. They spoke of the Great Black Pyramid, of deranged cultists sulking in the half submerged spires, and of the Daemon-howls that could be heard coming out of the buried buildings.

The Heretics heard these things, and were uneasy about them. Few of them would dare venture in to the city.

But one people- the clan Haus- had no choice. They were driven out, first by rival tribes, then the new comers, from the banks of the Colorado. They wandered through the desert, half starved, even resorting to cannibalism towards the end. They needed a shady place, somewhere where they could rest there heads- and they found it. They did away with all taboos, and marched into the half sunken city, greeted by a sand-scarred sign, in the old characters.

Las Vegas had a great variety of wildlife- it is said that, before the Event, it held some of the greatest menageries on the face of the earth. WHen the Event happened, they got out. Though most of them died, many of them survived and even prospered- Lions, Ostriches, Cheetahs, Camels, they all radiated outward from the City- a place that humanity would let them be and breed.

The Hauss took advantage of these animals, and survived in the spires off of there meat. Slowly but surely, they irrigated the landscape, building rooftop gardens. They grew. And they strook out at the world that wronged them. They would massacre and enslave the Desert Tribes, and many of the Exiles. They would march on Fort Hoova, and raised the banner. Blue, with a bull's skull.

Now they dominate one of the greatest of the Desert Trading posts. From the Pyramid and Sphinx they rule over there city, having a happy relationship with most of the outside powers- namely, they exile people to become slaves into the Desert and the Las Vegi keep camels and horses plodding the roads. In addition, the richest industry is steel and glass. Great foundries melt down those old world spires hidden beneath the dunes, and melt the glass fragemnts to be sold across the Americas, from New Orleans to the St. Lawrence.

The Desereti, however, are horrified at the locals. Rumor has it that the House Hauss still partakes in cannibalism, and the acceptance of the criminal immigrants who have not been enslaved is horrifying. Oh, and the slavery. Thousands of faiths are worshiped in the City, giving it the name Vegas of the Thousand Totems. The New Agers and Scientologists are fairly accepting as long as they don't cut off trade.

But things are not all well for Las Vegas. As they mine out the steel beneath the City, they open a vast cavern. The city is sitting on top of hollow space, and sooner or later, it will all come tumbling done, finally reclaimed by the Desert.
 
Spooky and appropriate, I like it! I would think the old Strip would still be a destination for elites though, with games of chance taught there and spread out wards.
 
Spooky and appropriate, I like it! I would think the old Strip would still be a destination for elites though, with games of chance taught there and spread out wards.
Maybe the only religious creed that's universal there is a belief in Holy Fate, or something along those lines.

I've put together a map of the Southwest and Noroeste.

Cedros, or the Isla de Cedros, is a Free Zone colony though currently it is politically independent. Its people speak a kind of creolized Angelan English language and practice a local form of scientology. It is a small city-state of 2500 or so people who sustain themselves by trade and fish. Its totemic symbols are a cedar tree and pyramid.

Tiburón in the Gulf of California is an even smaller outpost. It remains dependent on Guadalupe Victoria, the capital of Bajo Colorado. Its population is mostly Bajocoloradan traders and privateers.

I included trade routes as a reminder that these empires are not isolated. It may turn out that some of these are actually "cultural areas" rather than unified empires.

southwest empires jpeg.jpg
 
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Nobility of The Kingdom of Quebec

The nobility of the Kingdom of Quebec is a class of individual considered to have a special status within society. Beside the prestige, belonging to the nobility means exemption from certain legal obligations (such as taxes and labour) as well as other miscellaneous advantages.

A distinction should be made between titles and nobility itself. Titles within the kingdom are considered personal with some being hereditary, others not so or with some reservation. The status of nobility itself however is inherent and unless revoked by the king, will be passed on automatically.
One of the effect of this state of affairs is that the majority of nobles do not have a Title of Nobility but instead a Title of Courtesy. This mean that the spouse and children of a title holder do not have any special ranks but instead are referred to as Misyeu/Medame (full name) de (noble name)
Nobility is divided into various categories depending on its origin:

--- Royalty
The royal family is considered to be above and in many ways, outside the various ranks of nobility which is why its various members have each his or her own title which can change over the life of the person.

- Roé/Raène: The head of the kingdom and fount of the legitimacy of all other nobles. At the death of the previous monarch, the title is passed on to his or her eldest direct legitimate child. The laws of succession do not make a difference between male or female heirs.

- Roé-coujouè/Raène-coujouète: The spouse of the reigning monarch.

- Roé-veuf/Raène-veuve: title adopted by the Roé-coujouè/Raène-coujouète after the death of his/her spouse.

- Roétlet/Raènette: The heir apparent to the throne.

- Praéce-Rial/Praéçasse-Rial: legitimate children of the monarch who are not the heir apparent.

- Praéce-dzu-sane/Praéçasse-dzu-sane: a relative of the monarch. Siblings of the monarch continue to be refered to as Praéce-Réal/Praéçasse-Réal until the birth of his or her first legitimate child.

--- Nobility of land
The nobility of the land is related to posession of a fief. Fiefs, with the liege approval, may be bought and sold so that liekwise the title linked to it may be gained or lost.

- Praéce/Praéçasse: liege of a Praécipalité (principality). While there has been a few historical ones, there is currently only a single one, that of Mourial. For all intend and purpose, a principality represent a county with more autonomy and can contain seignories.

- Coute/Coutasse: liege of a Couté (County).

- Signur/Signurasse: liege of a signeurie (seignory).

- Châtlat/Châtlane: A noble whos domain is composed solely of a manor and adjoining lands without any inhabitants beside the title holder, family members and retainers. This type of fief usualy given as a reward (as this grant the title holder independence from a signur) but is also often encountered along the border or in the wilderness where the title is given in exchange for a duty to defend travellers.

--- Nobility of Sword
This type of nobility is given as a reward to military officers who have served the kingdom beyond the call of duty.

In addition to the title, the holder, spouse and descendants are allowed the right to bear the particule follow by the name of their "fait-d'armes", a reference to the battle or action that lead to him or her being granted the title.

Unlike the nobility of land, the title is not hereditary altough the spouse and chilren of a commoner who has been ennoble at the same time retain their status and the right to bear the particule and fait-d'armes.

- Maréchal/Amiral: given to a general who lead a victorious army during a war. Amiral, a much rarer title, apply to a naval flag officer.

- Commadeure/Commadeuse: An officer below the rank of general who has been victorious during an important battle.

--- Nobility of Office
granted to high civil servants who have served the kingdom with diligeance for a number of years. Unlike the nobility of land and arms, there are no standard titles given to these nobles who instead are granted a special responsability (usualy symbolic though not always) within the royal household with the title given to it often becoming extinguished at the death of the holder or given to someone from an entirely different family unless the descendants of the title holder serve the monarch in a similar fashion for at least 3 generations in which case it becomes hereditary at the monarch's pleasure.

No matter the case, just like the other categories, spouses and children are enobled at the time the title is granted. Instead of a fief or fait-d'arme, their particule simple preceded their family name although on a few occasions, slightly poetic noble names were granted instead.

--- Nobility of Ribbon
nobles of this category were granted entry into one of the noble orders of the kingdom. As certain orders require one or more generation of nobility for entry, only those who do not belong to one of the other categories are usualy considered to belong to this one. Also, unlike the other ones, nobility is granted to the title holder, spouse and childrens but the children cannot pass it on unless they themselves acquire it by their own actions.

For this reason, the Nobility of Ribbon is often seen as the entrance into hereditary nobility with the title holder using his newfound status to arrange marriage into noble families or gaining access for his children into post that might also deliver permanent noble status for his descendants.

The noble name of the title holder, spouse and childrens is similar to those of Nobility of office.

- Archi-Joualier/Archi-Joualiare (grand knight): highest level within orders that do not require more then one generation of nobility. Normally reserved for higher military officers and civil servants that have served well but did not meet the requirement for receiving a title of Nobility of Office or of Sword

- Joualier/Joualiare (knight): Require to already be an squire and as all orders have limits on the number of knights it can have at any one time, It is only at this level that a person is considered to be "properly" noble by the population at large and other nobles in particular.

- Écuyer/Écuyare (squire): The entrance level within an order. can be given, in theory, to anyone and as been known to be given by some prince to their noble friends for little to no reasons.
 
I assumed that the Québécois nobility had preserved Parisian
French because nationalism.
why ? OTL even those who want to speak "good french" in quebec don't sound parisian unless they purposefully put on an accent.

Also, considering we're talking about at least a millenia of evolution without day-to-day contact with france, nobles would have more chances of ending speaking like the locals.
 
I assumed that the Québécois nobility had preserved Parisian
French because nationalism.
The fun of this project is that the culture of the Americas parallel medieval cultures in many ways, but (in-world, at least) they do not have any direct influence from them. All the cultural attributes should descend directly from OTL modern American, Canadian, and Mexican culture.
 
ny thoughts on my Las Vegas entry? A mini hydraulic empire based around Lake Mead, Hoover dam, the Colorado, old world steel, trade routes and slaves?
 
ny thoughts on my Las Vegas entry? A mini hydraulic empire based around Lake Mead, Hoover dam, the Colorado, old world steel, trade routes and slaves?
I'm trying to remember if any decision was made regarding old-world buried artifacts. In theory this could be a major source of materials for all cultures; our own civilization will have left behind an enormous amount of stuff. But something tells me that it was decided to minimize their influence in the MATkII world, because the presence of all that steel and copper wire would skew the "medieval" feel.

What do you think of my idea of Fate as a unifying god/goddess/spirit figure?
 
I believe the consensus was that we would not have them, but I think that if we want to have cool old world ruins (which seem kind of essential, and actually happened with Roman ruins in the first middle ages), we need to allow at least some old world steel to survive. Perhaps we can handwave it, saying that only very small portions are actually accessible, with the rest being either to rusted, to irradiated, or to hard to get to to make a mining enterprise worth while. I think we kind of need some metal to survive, if only to allow a proper medieval society to develop in the absence of large natural mineral deposits. I think this is especially justifiable in the Southwest, where the dunes would preserve the old wolrd cities well. But this kind of mining would not be sustainable- a cavern is slowly growing under Vegas…
But on religion; I do like this idea- perhaps the chief Goddess is derived from Mother Mary, perhaps known as ‘Lady Luck’. Probably quite fatalistic, after the hardships and being pushed into the abandoned city. Quite hedonistic, but perhaps Lady Luck is said to turn the odds in your favor if you if you serve the House House well.
Perhaps the House House’s motto could be ‘The House Always Wins’, as any time they are conquered the House can flee to Fort Hoover, and they can make agriculture impossible by draining Lake Mead and flooding the banks of the Colorado until the attackers leave. This has led to an uneasy peace with Deseret, which has never been able to take and hold the city.
 
But on religion; I do like this idea- perhaps the chief Goddess is derived from Mother Mary, perhaps known as ‘Lady Luck’. Probably quite fatalistic, after the hardships and being pushed into the abandoned city. Quite hedonistic, but perhaps Lady Luck is said to turn the odds in your favor if you if you serve the House House well.
Perhaps the House House’s motto could be ‘The House Always Wins’, as any time they are conquered the House can flee to Fort Hoover, and they can make agriculture impossible by draining Lake Mead and flooding the banks of the Colorado until the attackers leave. This has led to an uneasy peace with Deseret, which has never been able to take and hold the city.
Fantastic. :D
 
The Central Inquisition Agency

The Central Inquisition Agency is the strong arm of the Supreme Court. Formerly belonging to the Executive. Branch, which has lost almost all of its power since the United States became dedicated only to God and Coin. While for the most part, heresy within the Nondenominational Wardendoms and Governorships is handled by Town Hall Debates, the Senate and the Supreme Court, sometimes things go to far to be handled peacefully. In such situations, the Central Inquisition Agency is called in.

One such example was the Snake Heresies across the South. The South, being built on a caste system wherein the lighter skinned ruled over serfs on plantations, could be very oppressive at times. To this end, Snake Heresies, inspired by old world beliefs throughout the South and Voudon Cultists (which contained some anti-white rhetoric on occasion due to Rastafarian influence) spread throughout the population of Serfs. They would often rebel against the Southern Gentry, and calls were put in from Plantation Masters to the Supreme Court to root out the heresies. Though reluctant at first (serfdom was abhorred by many in the United States) when the Snake Heresies began mounting attacks near the prosperous US port of Norfolk, the CIA decided they must take action. Key Heretics were captured, tortured, and sent to the penal caps on Tangier Isle. The Serpent Rebellion quickly collapsed.

They would also be set with the task of crushing the Ku Klux Klan, a cultic organization based in many of the poor mountain clans that was concerned with crushing the Voudons and keeping the Damyankees out of Dixian affairs.

Recently, however, the Inquisition has take an interest in the affairs of not only Nondenomdom, but the United States itself.
 
I very much like the core of the idea, and love the Central Inquisition Agency.

If we're to take the original White material as canon, however, then the South is no longer a caste-based society. This isn't my favorite thing from the Atlas site because it perpetuates the misconception that anything "medieval" must mean endless pain and misery for everyone all the time forever ... but it is the most that was ever written on the South (except for the Gulf Coast).

Population and Race said:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/medvam/race.htm

Only in the South, where the races were in closer equilibrium, did the old racial divisions survive the early centuries. In terms of socioeconomic status, this put blacks on the bottom, and whites, well, also on the bottom. I mean, we're talking about the Middle Ages here, and just about everyone was on the bottom; however, because the law forbade blacks from owning land or working at any important profession, the handful of people at the top were definitely and exclusively white.

The blending of the Southern races occured below the historical horizon, among the poorly recorded underclasses and without the legal sanction of marriage, but by the 25th Century, the process seems to have turned the corner. It's about this time that Northern travellers begin to note the darkness of white Southerners, and Caribbean travellers begin to to note the lightness of black Americans. The differences had become so subtle that only those born and raised in the community could spot them.

The legal watershed came in the early 26th Century, when Jimmy Duval rose to the office of Colonel of the Red River Territory. Throughout Medieval history, bastard sons and usurping soldiers of common birth had often disrupted dynastic succession, but Duval (illegitimate son of the former Colonel) was the first to openly acknowledge his African ancestry. Thirty years later, Ted Flannagan, a mixed-race captain of mercenaries, led a coup which placed him in the Presidency of Georgia. By the end of the century, the nations of the south had redefined their racial divisions. Rather than continuing to classify anyone with black blood as black, they reclassified anyone with white blood as white. As this, by now, included just about everyone, the days of slaughtering people simply for the color of their skin were over, and blacks and whites joined in harmonious brotherhood to slaughter people for the language they spoke or the god they worshipped instead.
 
I like the idea of Greek-style City State platantions, especially with Parthenon recreations in Tennessee and Athens, Georgia
 
I disagree with White on assuming that humanity would be white north of the Ohio. Post-event, technology would disappear, knocking out the jobs and welfare in the cities. However, in the country, when the modern technology disappears, the farmers would need many more people to work their farms. Due to rural flight, the small country towns would be completely and utterly insufficient to supply needed labor. So, some of them would go to the cities to recruit farm workers. When the word gets out that there is food and jobs in the countryside, millions of urbanites would flee the cities and attempt to not starve in the countryside. Many would be unsuccessful. However, the ones that do survive and become farm workers would be biased toward strong young men. These, in turn, would be, on average, blacker than the urban populations they came from. These new people in the rural areas would far outnumber the originals. Thus, there would be a pretty wide ring of blacker people around the once-great Midwestern cities. These people would settle in villages around the existing farms. These would look a lot like colonias initially, but as the years drag on, the peasants would build more permanent housing. The social structures in these villages would coalesce into a form where the farmowners are like nobility that own the land, and the peasants are tied to the land. In several areas, the nobility would be more like szlachta, owning only small, hilly farms and not being all that better off than the peasants. In other areas, the descendents of the managers of corporate farms would become wealthy gentry, with large amounts of wealth and very many peasants. The small towns of the countryside would become smaller towns, with only the county seats surviving as the home of the county's ruler, who lords over the knights and lives in a castle. The original rural inhabitants that were not farmers might become a higher class of peasants due to their local connections, perhaps they might have more rights, small holdings of their own, or be allowed to graze more animals on the common ground. However, the areas of the Midwest far from cities, like northern Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, and the UP, will have a far higher balance of originals to new people than the more southerly parts of the Midwest, and much less people overall. Here, we would probably see farmers abandoning large parts of their farms that they cannot get to, or even forming communes. That region will have a large lack of people. However, overcrowding will drive many people north, and we might see a kind of Nordsiedlung, with large abandoned fields being replowed, and locals responding in different ways to the wave of people.

As for the cities, most of the population would disappear or starve. However, small communities in the former cities would survive, and make a living by selling equipment, clothes, and other necessities that can not be grown on a farm to the rural areas. Gradually, the population of the cities would grow, as rural poverty and oppressive social structures would make people go to the cities. Once the mass population flights are over and the hysteria has gone away, many cities would regrow, and trade would start again. Many times, cities that used to be known for an industry would have a similar, but far less advanced industry become a local specialty. For example, Toledo would probably still be a major glass production center, as former glaziers would still know the basic principles of glassmaking. Similarly, Youngstown and Pittsburgh would become centers of metalworking, shipping the local products down the Ohio river. Also, the crash will have evened out the Midwestern city populations, so Indianapolis or Cleveland might not be all that much larger than Dayton or South Bend.
 
This gives the racial breakdown by total state. I think the assumption is that the urban and rural populations mixed more-or-less thoroughly in each region. So Californians would be quite a lot darker than White suggests, but overall the northern USA would look more European than not.



This is part of the Racial Dot Map to help visualize the populations available to spread and mix.
 
Discussion of Race.
I think you're right. I don't think the picture White paints of dominant whites enforcing a policy that results in all but eliminating racial diversity is particularly realistic. Even given the relative demographic dominance of whites in the north, there's probably a noticeable amount of racially mixed families and a few areas where the minorities were the dominant population of a town and never really changed.

To give an example, I think that a noticeable amount of Hmong/Asian descent will be evident in parts of central Wisconsin and around the old Twin Cities, where there are a lot of rural Hmong farmers, as well as many "black towns"(that is, black, asian, white, mixed-race, hispanic, etc. more noticeably diverse than the surrounding countryside basically) in and around old cities. I doubt they'd be the dominant population, but that's more because the largest portion of the populations up here are urban and unfortunately likely to suffer in whatever caused the Fall more than rural and suburban whites. Still, I think they would definitely exist even if not as commonly.

Thoughts from anyone else?
 
I think you're right. I don't think the picture White paints of dominant whites enforcing a policy that results in all but eliminating racial diversity is particularly realistic. Even given the relative demographic dominance of whites in the north, there's probably a noticeable amount of racially mixed families and a few areas where the minorities were the dominant population of a town and never really changed.

To give an example, I think that a noticeable amount of Hmong/Asian descent will be evident in parts of central Wisconsin and around the old Twin Cities, where there are a lot of rural Hmong farmers, as well as many "black towns"(that is, black, asian, white, mixed-race, hispanic, etc. more noticeably diverse than the surrounding countryside basically) in and around old cities. I doubt they'd be the dominant population, but that's more because the largest portion of the populations up here are urban and unfortunately likely to suffer in whatever caused the Fall more than rural and suburban whites. Still, I think they would definitely exist even if not as commonly.

Thoughts from anyone else?
since the "present time" is about a thousand years in the future, I think the distinction between those ethnicities might be lost and new ones will arise based on dominant genes in isolated populations and a whole lot of mixed marriage.
 
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