Medieval America Tk II: Discussion Thread

[Flashman]

On the subject of ranks; I think that certain Quebecois titles (Roi, Comte, Duc) would filter into some of the Northern States (Some of the New Englandeer states, New York and the Lakes). The Quebecois are the largest nation in the East, controller of the St. Lawrence, and quite probably trade across the Atlantic. The names would probably gain ubiquity in the North.

And maybe as another title for a County is Judge. As I said earlier, County Seats (such as my town) usually hold Courthouses- administrative centers, usually quite large and made of stone. And below him would be a Bailiff over a District or Bourough, so as to distinguish it from the actual European Bailiff.

And instead of the unwieldy President of the United States, use the term Potus. Originally I though of using it for the US due to it's similarity to Pontifex/Pope, but I figure it would apply to Unions as well.

Also, and this is just my opinion, but it seems like there should be one more body above the County. District, maybe? Zone? I dunno.

 

[Jord839]

Isn't that too topical considering how vague we are being about the fall? Also I don't think that there would be enough population for a series. I one Muslim kingdom hidden away I could understand as it could be formed by Muslims fleeing persecution but if it was well know it would get crusaded into oblivion.

Not going to lie, at first I felt the same way about it being too topical, but I think it might make sense under the right circumstances.

Say, one of the states is essentially "founded" by a group of Muslim refugees while the area is still dealing with Cowboy raiders and pressures from Utah, hidden in some small isolated part of the mountains. After a time, the fall of Deseret provides an opportunity where they start conquering or allying with other small local groups and become the leader of said alliance. The fall of the Mormon temple is a suitably apocalyptic event to hurt their influence and the raiding cowboys are the ancestral enemy, so a religion that tries to convert like Islam could build a sizable minority/plurality in the areas where this state takes power. The state consolidates and Islam grows stronger there over time, as refugees from other parts of the country flee to it and the regular citizens become more accustomed to it and convert out of pragmatism like avoiding taxes. The other states are then the result of adventurers looking to get their own fortunes from conquest, split sects or political groups looking to start again in the next valley over, etc. They could be united against outside aggression but with plenty of issues inside between fellow Muslims and their various vassals and headmen who still hold to older religions. There's plenty of room for a story here, however unlikely it looks at first glance.

That said, I think that there's going to be a serious change in Islam to accommodate the fall and living in an English-centered and illiterate world. Arabic might be the holy liturgical language, but I'd expect an English-based Quran to be the standard in the area, with a lot of loanwords and mistranslations and perhaps some other linguistic inventions to bridge the gap in writing.

On the subject of ranks; I think that certain Quebecois titles (Roi, Comte, Duc) would filter into some of the Northern States (Some of the New Englander states, New York and the Lakes). The Quebecois are the largest nation in the East, controller of the St. Lawrence, and quite probably trade across the Atlantic. The names would probably gain ubiquity in the North.

I think I agree, at least an anglicized version of Comte(which may not be Count with the way things work). The East Map shows that most of the large and powerful nations that call themselves Counties are almost all around the Great Lakes and close to Quebecois territory(and if we're borrowing from the old thread a little, they might have been briefly conquered once or twice by them as well): Allegheny County, Genesee County, Peterborough County, and Kingston County, all around Lake Huron and Lake Eerie. So now we know where the styling of Count could come from there.

New England, on the other hand, is mostly republics and city-states, so they won't have as much use for the terms except to refer to others. But, any hereditary rulers scattered in that territory will likely appropriate those titles as well. On another note, I get the feeling that the New Englanders hate Quebec more than the Feudal states, after all they're probably doing everything they can to get in on Quebec's monopoly on trade through the St. Lawrence and to the Old World, as well as being a collection of small and seemingly easy targets whenever an expansionist Roi rises. Let's get some New England/New France hatred here.

And instead of the unwieldy President of the United States, use the term Potus. Originally I though of using it for the US due to it's similarity to Pontifex/Pope, but I figure it would apply to Unions as well.

Also, and this is just my opinion, but it seems like there should be one more body above the County. District, maybe? Zone? I dunno.

I'll vote for using Potus in places too. It separates the Presidencies of the various feudal states and republics from the more impressive title of President of the Union. The Supreme Court acknowledges some Presidents, but has not yet chosen a "Potus" since the fall.

If we're going by a mix of court and political terms, I would say District or Circuit would be the most likely names for a collection of counties. That would allow leaders to draw continuity to the state's old Congressional districts and court circuits, and territories that cross a number of state lines could draw continuity with the Supreme Court circuit districts, though the East map doesn't show any states that have enough dominance to accurately claim that(except maybe Ohio, which reaches into territory in all four of the 6th circuit's states.

 

[Winner]

On the subject of ranks; I think that certain Quebecois titles (Roi, Comte, Duc) would filter into some of the Northern States (Some of the New Englandeer states, New York and the Lakes). The Quebecois are the largest nation in the East, controller of the St. Lawrence, and quite probably trade across the Atlantic. The names would probably gain ubiquity in the North.

Possibly. Also, even the natural dialectal split and language shifts would eventually change these "Classical English" terms into something hardly recognizable for us. One more vowel shift would make English sound very different, and if spelling then followed the pronunciation, we'd end up with samtink veri wird.

(Speaking of which - is the "Classical English", i.e. the pre-Downfall American English, still the literary/canonical language as Classical Latin used to be in medieval Europe?)

And maybe as another title for a County is Judge. As I said earlier, County Seats (such as my town) usually hold Courthouses- administrative centers, usually quite large and made of stone. And below him would be a Bailiff over a District or Bourough, so as to distinguish it from the actual European Bailiff.

Yes, "judge" or derived terms is definitely a good candidate (it conveys authority), I thought about including it but forgot. In all likelihood, many and more different terms would be used, depending on cultural specifics of the given region of feudal America.

And instead of the unwieldy President of the United States, use the term Potus. Originally I though of using it for the US due to it's similarity to Pontifex/Pope, but I figure it would apply to Unions as well.

Yes, possibly. An unwieldy term doesn't have to pose a problem though - since there has been no real President of the United States (or POTUS) since the collapse of the industrial civilization, its use has been restricted to books and scholarly inquiry. For most people it would be just a hypothetical term, something akin to "Emperor of the Romans" or "King of Kings", something like that.

Also, and this is just my opinion, but it seems like there should be one more body above the County. District, maybe? Zone? I dunno.

Well, since County is equivalent to the European duchy here, what would you propose? Mind that the equivalence between a title and the actual land area falling under it would be tenuous at best. Some counties would be "state"-sized, whereas other would be smaller than "districts" or "boroughs" in other places.

 

[Flashman]

I think I agree, at least an anglicized version of Comte(which may not be Count with the way things work). The East Map shows that most of the large and powerful nations that call themselves Counties are almost all around the Great Lakes and close to Quebecois territory(and if we're borrowing from the old thread a little, they might have been briefly conquered once or twice by them as well): Allegheny County, Genesee County, Peterborough County, and Kingston County, all around Lake Huron and Lake Eerie. So now we know where the styling of Count could come from there.

I had thought all of those were Commonwealths- especially Allegheny, considering it's descendant from the former Pennsylvania Commonwealth.

New England, on the other hand, is mostly republics and city-states, so they won't have as much use for the terms except to refer to others. But, any hereditary rulers scattered in that territory will likely appropriate those titles as well. On another note, I get the feeling that the New Englanders hate Quebec more than the Feudal states, after all they're probably doing everything they can to get in on Quebec's monopoly on trade through the St. Lawrence and to the Old World, as well as being a collection of small and seemingly easy targets whenever an expansionist Roi rises. Let's get some New England/New France hatred here.

Good (and funny) points. Perhaps the New Englandeers capture New Newfoundland (Brittany) and some port city (Calais)

I'll vote for using Potus in places too. It separates the Presidencies of the various feudal states and republics from the more impressive title of President of the Union. The Supreme Court acknowledges some Presidents, but has not yet chosen a "Potus" since the fall.

So they have had a Potus. So are we saying a Union can only apply to a restored (or semi restored) America? If so perhaps we need another name for Empire.
Possibly. Also, even the natural dialectal split and language shifts would eventually change these "Classical English" terms into something hardly recognizable for us. One more vowel shift would make English sound very different, and if spelling then followed the pronunciation, we'd end up with samtink veri wird.

(Speaking of which - is the "Classical English", i.e. the pre-Downfall American English, still the literary/canonical language as Classical Latin used to be in medieval Europe?)

If we're going by a mix of court and political terms, I would say District or Circuit would be the most likely names for a collection of counties. That would allow leaders to draw continuity to the state's old Congressional districts and court circuits, and territories that cross a number of state lines could draw continuity with the Supreme Court circuit districts, though the East map doesn't show any states that have enough dominance to accurately claim that(except maybe Ohio, which reaches into territory in all four of the 6th circuit's states.[/QUOTE]Good ideas here. Also, this reminds me; do all States' Loyals which practice Non-Denom vote on the President of the US/ Supreme Court? I wouldn't imagine so, only the Royals in America proper in addition to high ranking Church members.

Possibly. Also, even the natural dialectal split and language shifts would eventually change these "Classical English" terms into something hardly recognizable for us. One more vowel shift would make English sound very different, and if spelling then followed the pronunciation, we'd end up with samtink veri wird.

(Speaking of which - is the "Classical English", i.e. the pre-Downfall American English, still the literary/canonical language as Classical Latin used to be in medieval Europe?)

We've discussed the usual Lingua Franca being Murican p) in the East at the very least. Spoken in Courts (or Cabinets, maybe? I like that as a term in medieval America) and among the Learned, and generally a Lingua Franca.

I think that the US would want to use the fanciest language possible- after all, they are the Church, they need to need to impress the filthy Peasants. Expect heavy use of long words, and archaic spellings and pronunciations, with heavy embellishment to make it sound fancier. As for accent, I imagine it being somehwere between a Midatlantic Accent and a Virginian Planter's accent. Proper pronunciation is very important in the States, and any Learned child can expect a lashing from the Mason that is teaching if he deviates.

It may hang on in California, possibly as the Scientology Liturgical language, and especially among the Geeks (do you expect them to write from shoddy folk accounts). Deseret possibly, though I imagine that like the constructed alphabet, they construct a language from it. The Horse Nomads have probably left it behind totally.

Yes, "judge" or derived terms is definitely a good candidate (it conveys authority), I thought about including it but forgot. In all likelihood, many and more different terms would be used, depending on cultural specifics of the given region of feudal America.

Hmm. Thinking on it, it may be abandoned more or less in the East. It will probably grow to become asscociated with the filthy Horsemen. I dunno, I think it's a good term. Maybe it's considered more archaic, and exists only in small enclaves.

 

[Flashman]

Would everyone be OK with me fleshing out Vegas more? (In addition to actual additions, I will add many Fallout references)

 

[Stuyvesant]

The Erie Canal Authority

The Canal is an extremely complex system, and one that is also vital to commerce within the Northeastern United States. No one state runs the Canal; instead the Canal Authority runs it as a third-party, although the different states fund the Authority in the various sections. The Authority’s power is not threatened, as the various leaders fear that such a move would merely lead to the destruction of the Canal and thus, its commerce.

 

[Flashman]

The Erie Canal Authority

The Canal is an extremely complex system, and one that is also vital to commerce within the Northeastern United States. No one state runs the Canal; instead the Canal Authority runs it as a third-party, although the different states fund the Authority in the various sections. The Authority’s power is not threatened, as the various leaders fear that such a move would merely lead to the destruction of the Canal and thus, its commerce.

Wouldn't the canal have been silted over?

And, if the Quebecois conquered New York, I would imagine them trying to destroy it. People today are angered by it bypassing the St. Lawrence.

 

[Stuyvesant]

Wouldn't the canal have been silted over?

And, if the Quebecois conquered New York, I would imagine them trying to destroy it. People today are angered by it bypassing the St. Lawrence.

Well, the only similarity that this canal shares with the old one is location, i'd say it was rebuild following Quebecois retreat.

 

[Flashman]

I wonder what drugs would survive the Event? With the exception of meth, most could probably be produced with 14th century technology. They probably become heavily taxed luxury items. Maybe the flow is controlled by Cartel Kingdoms throughout Latin America? Mercantile states that also deal in rubber and sugar from the South.

 

[Flashman]

Well, the only similarity that this canal shares with the old one is location, i'd say it was rebuild following Quebecois retreat.

Hmm. It would seem to me that such a project would require some kind of centralized authority within New York.

Also, where do we stand on the idea the the Quebecois conquered parts of upstate New York? I thought it was aa fun idea, a semi-francified to the north. So far, the only concrete things we have on New York is New Skvir and the fact that the US owns part of it, including Manhattan and Long Island.

 

[Stuyvesant]

Hmm. It would seem to me that such a project would require some kind of centralized authority within New York.

Also, where do we stand on the idea the the Quebecois conquered parts of upstate New York? I thought it was aa fun idea, a semi-francified to the north. So far, the only concrete things we have on New York is New Skvir and the fact that the US owns part of it, including Manhattan and Long Island.

Well, let's say, Quebecois control south of the Dax (Adirondacks) was extremely loose, and thus didn't have the clout to full destroy the Canal, instead it silted over, and the Engineers went into hiding.

Also, the two Counties of the North Country, Watertown and Champlain are probably quite Francified, I mean, they have a slight French-Canadian twang in the speak these days.

EDIT: Govner Dewitt the Builder anyone?

 

[Flashman]

Well, let's say, Quebecois control south of the Dax (Adirondacks) was extremely loose, and thus didn't have the clout to full destroy the Canal, instead it silted over, and the Engineers went into hiding.

Also, the two Counties of the North Country, Watertown and Champlain are probably quite Francified, I mean, they have a slight French-Canadian twang in the speak these days.

EDIT: Govner Dewitt the Builder anyone?

The Wolf in the North, holding back the Albino Quebecker Hordes!

 

[Marc Pasquin]

The Wolf in the North, holding back the Albino Quebecker Hordes!

Lead by...... THE SNOW KING !

 

[Flashman]

The Confederation of New England

The Confederation of New England

-Government System: Feudalism/ Mercantile Republicanism
-Head of State: President as elected by the House of Peers
-Population: 5 Million
-Religion: Non-Denominational (mostly)
-Totemic Symbol: Pine Tree

 

[Flashman]

What becomes of the Amish? I don't see them hanging onto pacifism, like the Mormons. Without the outside world for youngins' to enjoy a few years of sin and debauchery, I imagine they take up the cause of defending it from the outside world. Perhaps they manage to carve out a small kingdom for them selves in PA.

And perhaps, one day, they are wiped out by the Allegheny County, and the become a wandering people. Eventually, a group of these 'Dutch' settle in New York, and hello New Netherlands (Or Germany I suppose)

 

[Marc Pasquin]

What becomes of the Amish? I don't see them hanging onto pacifism, like the Mormons. Without the outside world for youngins' to enjoy a few years of sin and debauchery, I imagine they take up the cause of defending it from the outside world. Perhaps they manage to carve out a small kingdom for them selves in PA.

I don't think much would change actually. Rumspringa is simply a mean for the youth to experiment the outside world and make an informed choice about whether they want to belong to the community or not. within MA, they might be encourage to travel around a bit to see the outside world but the point would remain the same: choose to follow the rules of the community or make a life in the outside world.

 

[Flashman]

I don't think much would change actually. Rumspringa is simply a mean for the youth to experiment the outside world and make an informed choice about whether they want to belong to the community or not. within MA, they might be encourage to travel around a bit to see the outside world but the point would remain the same: choose to follow the rules of the community or make a life in the outside world.

But when the Outside World collapses, it only makes sensefor the Dutch to expand outwards. I would imagine that Rumspringa becomes a time in someones life when they're allowed to fight for the People; afterwards, they must swear to a life of pacifism. The only thing that makes the Amish viable is what a peaceful era they live in.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

But when the Outside World collapses, it only makes sensefor the Dutch to expand outwards. I would imagine that Rumspringa becomes a time in someones life when they're allowed to fight for the People; afterwards, they must swear to a life of pacifism. The only thing that makes the Amish viable is what a peaceful era they live in.

But the amishes believe first and foremost in self-sufficiency, conquest would make very little sense to them. This is the reason they shun modern technology incidently, no some form of luddism.

Also bear in mind that pacifism has been part of their culture even in colonial times when things weren't exactly peaceful. If things became dangerous, they simply moved.

What you might see is them actually trying to cut themselves off even more so from the outside world by appearing unappealing, inhabiting marshes, cave systems and the like if need be.

 

[Stuyvesant]

I was thinking the Amish as the almost-jews. A group of 'others' lacking a homeland that wander North America.

Anyways. to bump the thread: A map of Upstate NY.

Green: Champlain County/Vermont (Plattsburgh)
Red: Comte Villedeau (Watertown)
Buff: Gennesee County (Buffalo)
Light Blue: State of New York (Syracuse)
Dark Blue: State of New York (Albany)

 

[Flashman]

I was thinking the Amish as the almost-jews. A group of 'others' lacking a homeland that wander North America.

Anyways. to bump the thread: A map of Upstate NY.

Green: Champlain County/Vermont (Plattsburgh)
Red: Comte Villedeau (Watertown)
Buff: Gennesee County (Buffalo)
Light Blue: State of New York (Syracuse)
Dark Blue: State of New York (Albany)

My idea was basically they become aggressive, set up a Lancaster Theocracy, then either piss off Harrisburg or Allegheny. The farms are salted, and they end up becoming a wandering people. A large majority of them simply end up becoming distinctive clans of Hill Folk. Others end up as famed farmers along the Ohio River, joining up with other Amish settlements. But, a good number of them flee north to the Catskills. Here, they end up becoming part of a clan of Hillfolk known as the "Dutch"- a mixture of the Yiddish of New York not living in New Skvir and the Pennsylvania Dutch's bastard German have created a new and distinct language in the Catskills. The Dutch are usually Non-Denom, Amish (for the Dutch, this is more of a religious denomination then an ethnic one (though it is also used to denote clan)) and Judaism, or strange mixes of the three. The two major clans are the Clan Stoltfus and the Clan Weisberg. Though the Dutch have no state, they are more or less left alone in the wilds, and gave the Quebeckers hell on there march south. They are famed for both farming and trading.

Also, I imagined Champlain being Quebecois-ified (now called Champlainge)