Medieval America Mark III

re: Pirates - lot of lore to draw from in the Golden Age of Piracy for flavor here. In terms of Jamaica being a pirate haven, Kingston may be home to a "Pirate King" - of course, this role would be largely ceremonial (and elected) since pirates would be allied to innumerable powers, from the Witch Queen of N'awleens to the burghers of Cuba, ven some loyal to the President and the Supreme Court. His role would be some minor pirate spiritual figure, and ensuring the neutrality of Kingston.
I'd imagine that the title of "Pirate King" is usually one that's claimed by a pirate of a certain legendary caliber. Pulling off seemingly impossible raids and outwitting fleets with a lot of pirate vessels flocking to these self appointed kings.

Wonder how Tortuga is these days.
 
I'd imagine that the title of "Pirate King" is usually one that's claimed by a pirate of a certain legendary caliber. Pulling off seemingly impossible raids and outwitting fleets with a lot of pirate vessels flocking to these self appointed kings.

Wonder how Tortuga is these days.
Perhaps Kingston was home to the first (possibly legendary) Pirate King, but was eventually overthrown.
 
-Neo-Medieval Piracy as usual, is a case of splitting the difference--in this case the Golden Age of Piracy and the Viking Age. (The Vikings also had a system that resembled democracy as much as not.) As it is, our image of the Pirate has been Hollywooded up, (Many were not white, nobody really buried treasure) so it helps to go back to the source. Also, I can imagine a lot of them being Cocaine addicts.

-Totalitarian governments already exist in the Hydraulic Empires. Invoking Fascism specifically would not make sense as it would be loaded (People don't want to use the term King for their feudal states) and fairly redundant. Society is already a militaristic throwback, without the industrial infrastructure that distinguishes fascism.

As for Communism, likewise, I think any ecclesiastical fiefdoms or nomadic tribes would effectively accomplish a lot of Communist goals, but without the polarizing labels, or the mass scale.

"Renaissance Level" would be around the the Eastern Seaboard and a few other places, but once you start getting to the 1600's, you get to technology and culture that has already existed in the Americas, and then you don't really have the premise anymore.
 
Piracy is probably based more out of the Eastern Caribbean than the west. It is incumbent on naval powers such as Louisiana and whatever the Mexican answer to Louisiana is (I'm thinking a Yucatan state) to protect certain sea lanes at a minimum, chiefly those around Cuba. However, they may not be willing or able to chase pirates back to bases as far as Puerto Rico or the Lesser Antilles.
 
-Neo-Medieval Piracy as usual, is a case of splitting the difference--in this case the Golden Age of Piracy and the Viking Age. (The Vikings also had a system that resembled democracy as much as not.) As it is, our image of the Pirate has been Hollywooded up, (Many were not white, nobody really buried treasure) so it helps to go back to the source. Also, I can imagine a lot of them being Cocaine addicts.
And now you have me thinking of the Iron Born from A Song of Ice and Fire...

That and Pirate Shield Maidens.
-Totalitarian governments already exist in the Hydraulic Empires. Invoking Fascism specifically would not make sense as it would be loaded (People don't want to use the term King for their feudal states) and fairly redundant. Society is already a militaristic throwback, without the industrial infrastructure that distinguishes fascism.

As for Communism, likewise, I think any ecclesiastical fiefdoms or nomadic tribes would effectively accomplish a lot of Communist goals, but without the polarizing labels, or the mass scale.
"Renaissance Level" would be around the the Eastern Seaboard and a few other places, but once you start getting to the 1600's, you get to technology and culture that has already existed in the Americas, and then you don't really have the premise anymore.
You still have plenty of room for regional national identities, cultures and governments.

Cowboy cossacks, French styled nobility in the deep South, etc.
 
Piracy is probably based more out of the Eastern Caribbean than the west. It is incumbent on naval powers such as Louisiana and whatever the Mexican answer to Louisiana is (I'm thinking a Yucatan state) to protect certain sea lanes at a minimum, chiefly those around Cuba. However, they may not be willing or able to chase pirates back to bases as far as Puerto Rico or the Lesser Antilles.
I think part of that depends on where the trade routes from South America end up. If sailors go directly from wherever the northern terminus of the Andean trade routes are (Caracas, Cartagena, Barranquilla or Maracaibo) directly to Hispaniola or Jamaica, then you would not see heavy policing of the eastern Carribbean. In this scenario Jamaica would probably not have pirates

If Sailor otherwise choose to go along the coast and island hop, then the eastern Caribbean becomes highly policed and no pirates there. In this scenario, Jamaica, cut out of maritime trade, probably becomes a piracy hub.
 
"Renaissance Level" would be around the the Eastern Seaboard and a few other places, but once you start getting to the 1600's, you get to technology and culture that has already existed in the Americas, and then you don't really have the premise anymore.
I think that while that technology and culture has already existed in the Americas, the dynamic between organized states didn't. Instead of native tribes potential colonists would be met with large organized states at most 100 years behind in terms of technology.

Also, post-medieval Americans would have much greater immunity to European diseases and the situation would more closely resemble pre-Raj India than colonial America. Also increasing centralization might see Ohio and Iowa merge and swallow up the rest of the Heartland. The interplay between a powerful interior state and coastal states separated by a mountain range would be interesting.
 
Medieval navigation probably means a lot of coast-hugging.
The Renaissance and Early Modern periods could be wild as the sheer amount of undeniable archaeological, demographic, and linguistic evidence for a former world civilization becomes clear. Musings about the Old Ones and how they destroyed themselves are pessimistic but could lead to a deeper sense of equality between the post-apocalyptic peoples as fellow heirs to the fallen world.
 
Hmm, so returning to Cascadian and Bhuddism, how did the first Cascadian lama come about, and can Cascadian monks have families?

I was thinking about this, and thought that perhaps John Amadi dictated to his followers prior to his death that he'd be reborn in a city. The disciples go there but can't find his reincarnation until one of them falls pregnant and the disciples realize that the child is the reincarnation of Amadi. Though if that was the case, then it is difficult to justify Cascadian monks not being able to have children.
 
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The Deejay and the Shape of Five Lengths. (img source)

Preface of an anonymous compendium of hemp-scrolls, thought to be written by Deejay Agustin of Gila

ഗ In the dance of numbers the Californian vision-men be favored partners. Though they pile not stones so high as we, they see what a man may work in a day, and see what he must eat or drink. From this they derive the principle of re-addition, of how much one man does in ten days or ten men do in one. They see first how much water a vessel holds, and derive from this the principle of enclosure, that a circle of fathomed width and depth may capture the rain to slake a village’s thirst. Though we count not the instants so keen as they, we have treasured the First Deejay’s Calendar of the Large and Small Sevens for half an Age. Hungry are we for certainty in space, in matter, that our pyramids caress the clouds and stars. Hungry are they for certainty in time, in spirit, that their vision-men may furl out the full writ of a man’s deeds in life and lives previous and at last declare him good. ⪮

ഗ If this be true, then we of the Sentximund’ are loosetongue liars. We cry out in so many words that our vision is the purest of all men, for we turn in contemplation to the Age that we may see the miracles and secrets long-lost twinkling as jewels in the light of the Sixth Sun. Our numbers prove us false; if the cloudheaded Californian thinking be the rattlesnake’s first skin, ours be no more than the second or third. ⪮

ഗ Stay your hand; I despise not the glories of our kind. I fear only that the pyramids, though they once moved men’s hearts, becalm now their hearts and work their limbs. The builders of the pyramids move great numbers of men, water, and stone, but the kinships of re-addition and enclosure among these numbers has persisted half an Age. Monuments add not one sentau’ to true wealth— the fruits of contemplating the Age. The miracles of the Age are as the grains of sand, as the miracles of numbers show. ⪮

Treatise 5 of the Gila Scrolls

ഗ It is known that we may enclose a length twice to make a square, thrice a cube. From a cube, space may be taken away to make a pyramid, and so a pyramid is a shape of three lengths though it fill only one third the space of its parent the cube. We may enclose a length four or even five times. Though such shapes are beheld only by the mind’s eye of those who have dwelled long in a Vortex and become its wandering vessels, all may guess at their sizes with one number and one principle. How marvelous, that every man keeps a pebble of the Vortexes’ greatness in the folds of his tunic! I say to you such miracles come in pairs; if we take any number as the size of a Shape of Five Lengths, we may take its lengths into our hands as simply as the ribs of a tent. Two truths you know well; two I put forward. ⪮

ഗ It is known that to divide a cube by a square gives a length.
ᓌ It is suggested that to divide a shape of five lengths from a shape of four lengths gives a length. ⪮

ഗ It is known that for a list where all but the last member are known to be the same, if the average is known to be the same as the known members then the last member must be the same as the others.
ᓌ It is suggested that if by splendid chance I guess a number which is enclosed five times to give the number targeted, then the Trial of the Average must show that the target divided by this guess enclosed four times is the same as the original guess. ⪮

ഗ The course is as follows. Construct a list of five numbers wherein four are the same as the number you guess to be the answer, and the fifth is the size of the Shape divided by the guess enclosed four times. Take the average of this list. Unless you are blessed in the eyes of gods and men, this average is likely not the same as your guess. Take this average as your new guess and repeat the trial; the second result will without fail be smaller than the first. Repeat the trial again, and the third result is again smaller— though the third will be closer to the second, than the second to the first. Repeat again, and again, and you will come upon a result only a hair away from the previous. This result is what we have sought, and you may enclose it five times for yourself to see the truth of my word. ⪮

ഗ The proof of this marvelous trial is as follows— [page lost]

Conclusion of the Gila Scrolls

[page lost]

—where the Threshing Wind dwells, where the evil air turns men to husks, there were once found old books of numbers. They are burned now, but a god is not maimed by the crushing of its sacred stones. A fool is he who doubts their power. ESU TUD’. ⪮

***
I imagine the Deejays as a social group of philosophers and charismatic preachers, whose number might be limited by official or unofficial preferences for hereditary membership. Some are wanderers in search of revelations, others pursue rational and consistent theories amid the comforts of monasteries and libraries. The First Deejay’s Calendar of Large and Small Sevens divides the year into 7 months of 51 days (because Area 51 and all) and then 7 leap days (364 days total).

The Californian “unfurling of deeds” is either a reference to Scientologist clearings or security checks. Both involve questioning a person to uncover details about them, but clearing aims to continue a person’s spiritual evolution while sec-checks investigate them for sins (note: definitions of sin include thinking bad things about Scientology or its leaders). Medieval Scientology just wouldn’t be Scientology without continued use of questioning/interviews, which may also lend itself to a view of time as naturally divided into small units corresponding to lengths of human actions.

“Centro del Mundo”/”Center of the World” seems like a good poetic name for the land the New Mexico confederacy sits on. When the New Mexicans, Arizonans, and Dineh look out they will see Californians and their ocean to the West, the Sonorans and their ocean to the South, the Texas Cowboys and their ocean to the East, and the Deseretis and their “ocean” (Great Salt Lake) to the North. What else could New Mexico be but the geographic center of this world— and that’s before you consider how the Gray uniquely graced New Mexico with their presence, making it the spiritual center of the world too.
 
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Excellent, excellent work.
Thanks.

One note on the Center of the World: while I do very much appreciate your rationalization for it, I should note that in the Vortices post I did specify the precise point the New Mexicans believe the center of the world lay at:
Is it possible that Center of the World can refer metonymically to the whole region, even if the Four Corners are still considered the "inner center"/"grand center"? Maybe the Four Corners can use a different word for center (heart?) to show the difference in meaning.
 
Thanks.


Is it possible that Center of the World can refer metonymically to the whole region, even if the Four Corners are still considered the "inner center"/"grand center"? Maybe the Four Corners can use a different word for center (heart?) to show the difference in meaning.
Yeah, I think that's broadly correct; New Mexico/Dinetah is the center of the world, but the Four Corners are believed (falsely) to be at the geographic center of New Mexico.
 
I have some suggestions about threadmarks.

This thread jumps around a lot between topics. Land Of Sweetness also did this but it used its threadmarks to organize the chapters into easily accessible and navigable groups based on region. I think it would be best if the threadmarks here were made so important discussion posts or White's canon stuff (that set the rules for posts about a given region) are made the head threadmark and below that are each of the posts about that region as subheadings.
 
I have some suggestions about threadmarks.

This thread jumps around a lot between topics. Land Of Sweetness also did this but it used its threadmarks to organize the chapters into easily accessible and navigable groups based on region. I think it would be best if the threadmarks here were made so important discussion posts or White's canon stuff (that set the rules for posts about a given region) are made the head threadmark and below that are each of the posts about that region as subheadings.
Good point, I'll get around to doing that whenever I can muster up the energy to do a ToC update.
 
Medieval navigation probably means a lot of coast-hugging.
The Renaissance and Early Modern periods could be wild as the sheer amount of undeniable archaeological, demographic, and linguistic evidence for a former world civilization becomes clear. Musings about the Old Ones and how they destroyed themselves are pessimistic but could lead to a deeper sense of equality between the post-apocalyptic peoples as fellow heirs to the fallen world.
I doubt that the people of Medival America wouldn't know about the "Old Ones" and how they fell. A good comparison for how they would view the Regression would be like how medieval kings and scholars viewed the Fall of Rome.
 
I doubt that the people of Medival America wouldn't know about the "Old Ones" and how they fell. A good comparison for how they would view the Regression would be like how medieval kings and scholars viewed the Fall of Rome.
Heh, I just posted in another thread (right here) I'm slowly coming to wonder if America east of the Rockies could stay united or at worst endure only temporary Chinese-style breakups than the Roman Empire-style breakup this specific thread/concept is about. I refuse to make it a big topic of discussion and derail this thread subject (also because I love it), but this begs the idea if, as feudal realms begin consolidation into more bigger and stable entities and enter any Renaissance equivalent, they eventually begin seeing pan-American feelings amongst nobility or even common people alike - the way Chinese civilization went from the ancient Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties that were weakly united yet feudal and frequently split up into fully independent petty kingdoms into the permanent unification of a strong centralized Chinese Empire under Qin Huang-Di.

You sure as heck can't unify all the territory of the 48 states, but if one realm managed to take over enough in the Ohio Valley or unify the old Thirteen Colonies area, it would be able to snowball the Mississippi River Valley and change. Bonus points if they move the capital back to Washington, though that site isn't half bad as a midway point between the east coast's north and south and assuming you get a road or canal built to the Ohio River, to the said Mississippi watershed as well.
 
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I doubt that the people of Medival America wouldn't know about the "Old Ones" and how they fell. A good comparison for how they would view the Regression would be like how medieval kings and scholars viewed the Fall of Rome.
It's been a thousand years, a lot of info can be lost-- and when all science has been lost it would seem like there was an even greater disruption of textual transmission than even after the Fall of Rome. That period at least had a surviving network of scholars associated with the church, patronized by the rulers that came after; I doubt that was the case after the Event. All the religious upheaval also makes it more likely that some regions rely on rewritten histories that disparage older forms of worship and historical events associated with them. All in all, the better analogue would be the Greek Dark Ages, not the fall of Rome.

Even if the Americans do know a fair bit about the Old Ones, I think the uniformity of Old-One material culture and similarity of legends across the world will come as a shock-- everyone probably thinks (or wants to think) it was just their ancestors that flew around in metal birds and smote cities with the push of a button, and the neighbors probably just copied their legends or something.

I refuse to make it a big topic of discussion and derail this thread (also because I love it), but this begs the idea if, as feudal realms begin consolidation into more bigger and stable entities and enter any Renaissance equivalent, they eventually begin seeing pan-American feelings amongst nobility or even common people alike - the way Chinese civilization went from the ancient Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties that were weakly united yet feudal and frequently split up into fully independent petty kingdoms into the permanent unification of a strong centralized Chinese Empire under Qin Huang-Di.

You sure as heck can't unify all the territory of the 48 states, but if one realm managed to take over enough in the Ohio Valley or unify the old Thirteen Colonies area, it would be able to snowball the Mississippi River Valley and change.
Actually, I think a state that unified the Non-Denom definitely could unite the entire US. It wouldn't be cultural unity, every area would still be very distinctive. But a united Non-Denom world will advance faster than the New Israelites and can begin encroaching on their lands through aggression and assimilation starting in the early modern era, and then a state which governs both sides of the Mississippi will be very difficult to resist for the states further west. It's still possible for the western peoples to have recurrent periods of resistance that finally see them freed from the Non-Denom but it's worth noting that the Qing included many lands of non-Han people which evaded the Ming, lands which remain part of the Chinese state today.
 
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