Medieval America Mark III

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Flashman, Jun 21, 2017.

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  1. tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    I think a better version would be a single sided heavier sword

    Edit: A sword like this would resemble a falchion or machete.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
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  2. Flashman A Real Go-Getter

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    It's worth noting that there are going to be several different Mexican religious traditions.

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    In terms of states, there's Bajo Colorado, Chihuahua, Durango, Sinaloa, and Monterrey, and the Mexican Empire itself. There's also the minor states of Baja Colorado Sur and Matamosa, not to mention all of the nomadic horsemen and desert tribals.

    I would say Mexico itself doesn't get too off the beaten track: the Santa muerte is finally canonized, but our Virgin of Guadalupe remains the predominant religious icon. There is some degree of syncretism between the Catholic Church and the Aztecs, but only some.
     
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  3. tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    I disagree about central Mexico not straying heavily from the Roman Catholic Church. The central plateau depends heavily on irrigation and as thus, the various Presidents of Mexico have made changes to the religions as they see fit. I think that human sacrifices to the Gods/Saints as a way of nourishing them could work. Even if the priests wanted to stick to church tradition, all it takes is for one god-president to upend the priesthood and the religions.

    I agree that the smaller states might also have new religions though I think that based on the map, Chihuahua might have been taken over by some New-Agers but Sinaloa and Durango would still adhere to the word of the high priests in Mexico City and still be nominal vassals of Mexico.

    Also, don't think that it would be called the Mexican Empire. It would probably continue to use the title of the United States of Mexico/ Estados Unidos Mexicanos.
     
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  4. Flashman A Real Go-Getter

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    I could see some human sacrifice - perhaps in imitation of the crucifixion of Christ? - just probably not to the same extent as the Aztecs who were themselves exceptional in the region.

    And I think that the religion would still insist on a singular tripartite god, but with an incredibly strong worship of saints, spirits, angels, and "aspects of god" that are gods in all but name. And the Virgin Mary would still probably be predominant over the Santa Muerte at least in Mexico proper, though certainly associated as two sides of the same coin.

    Possibly some Mormon missionaires had their message twisted, that Christ came to the Americas and is one in the same as the Feathered Serpent?

    I think the states would be de facto and de jure independent. Those regions in the Precolumbian era were certainly independent of the Mexica, and in fact were constantly fighting them. They are probably minor hydraulic empires in and of themselves and have thus developed their own spins on Mexican Catholicism.

    I would agree it maintains that name, though I think the sovereign would adopt the name emperor considering the name does have a very long history in Mexico and comes with implications of divine power.
     
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  5. tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    1. This probably works.

    2. This pairs well with what I suggested earlier with saints joining a catholic pantheon and a "Royal Family" of the Gods in God/Yahweh, his consort on Earth the Virgin Mary, his Son Jesus and Jesus' consort Mary Magdalene.

    3. Probably not? Maybe the Feathered Serpent has been canonized?

    This is probably true. I'd say that earlier on, they were still de jure vassals but over time they broke away and really became Free and Sovereign States.
    Agreed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
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  6. Richard Drummond Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting discussions on Mexico. I personally really enjoy the idea of human sacrifice. Blood soaked monks is what I want to see!
     
  7. HonestAbe1809 Abraham Lincoln 2020

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    Centuries of Presidents/Emperors* making changes to Mexican Catholic doctrine as they please would make the current “Catholic” Church look drastically different its former self. Having their God/Yahweh be closer to Huitzilopochtli or Quetzalcoatl makes a lot of sense.

    *I’m thinking that while they’re consolidating power they’d still use the title of President. The title of Emperor only gets used after they’ve fully gained control over the country.
     
  8. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    Wonder what the Catholic Church is like in the rest of Latin America and if they share some elements with their Mexican Brothers. Kinda picturing a New World equivalent to the Vatican City somewhere in Brazil... actually picture an equivalent of the Teutonic Knights against the pagan tribes of the Amazon.
     
  9. tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    Theres probably 3/4 patriarchs in the west.

    Archbishop/Patriarch of Quebec

    Patriarch of Mexico in Mexico City -> Heavily modified after intervention

    Patriarch of Peru in Lima???? -> Heavily modified after intervention

    Patriarch of the Parana in Montevideo?/Beunos Aires -> This might actually somewhat resemble an Orthodox Christian Church
    -> Archbishop of Brazil (somewhat independent from Beunos Aires)
    -> Archbishop of Chile (not sure if this is under the Patriarch of the Parana or Peru, either way it is very independent)
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2019
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  10. tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    Regarding Brazil, I'm not sure how much land is cultivatable by medieval peasants. India and South East Asia come to mind so maybe in northern and central Brazil people grow mainly rice instead of corn or wheat.

    I think most of the land south of the Paraná and Paranaiba rivers should be fine. However how deep does agriculture extend on the other bank I'm not sure. Maybe those rivers mark a border between nomadic lands and agriculture.
     
  11. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    Speaking of Brazil I wonder what happened to these groups?
    That and I wonder if the descendants of Pablo Escobar's hippos and other exotic animals are still running around Columbia & the rest of South America.
     
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  12. tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    1 & 2 have merged into the broader Brazilian peasant culture.

    3, either they became Catholics or they were driven into the jungles.
     
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  13. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    That gives me the mental image of Brazilian knight looking like a cross between Samurai and Mamluks.
     
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  14. Flashman A Real Go-Getter

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    State of South Carolina

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    • System of Government: Feudal Monarchy
    • Head of state: Governor, the eldest son of the previous governor
    • Population: 1,100,000
    • Religion: Nondenominational Christianity
    • Totemic Symbol: Palmetto Tree
    South Carolina is a state with many enemies, but asking is governor to focus on one would be a nearly impossible task. Perhaps its greatest enemy is the Federal Government. Federal traders and their Gullah allies at times run roughshod over the lowcountry of the state, threatening the Governor’s ability to profit from the great port of Charleston. There are also the North Carolinians, who have many times attempted to gain control over the South and united the Carolinas into a single Confederacy. There are the conniving and snooty Georgians who believe that they have the right to govern the whole of Dixie. The perpetual threat of raiders out of the Appalachians and the swamp country may not pose a major threat to the governor’s power but continuously sap the tax dollars that his vassals are able to kick up to Columbia. And, of course, there are the vassal nobles themselves, proud and independence-minded to a fault.

    Centuries ago, a newly independent South Carolina was torn apart by local nobles who fell under the sway of American Evangelism. Though the Governor himself once openly professed his faith at a snake-handling revival, governors since increasingly sought to use the tools of the Federal Church to maintain their grip on power. Following the Tchaktaw Wars, which saw South Carolina raided by Evangelist proto-New Israelites, Columbia’s control beyond its immediate surrounding was largely shattered. It would take the efforts of the US Navy and the Georgian Army to once again restore order to the Palmetto State. In 2492, a thousand years after Columbus sailed the ocean blue, the two Carolinas were freed from Georgian rule and granted to the brothers of Georgia’s first lady. North and South Carolina fell under the rule of Felix and Virgil Hobbs respectively.

    The Hobbs dynasty ruled South Carolina much as the Georgians had, patronizing the arts and doing the slow work of centralizing the counties. However, vassals resented what they saw as the rule of of tyrannical and foreign governors. Things finally came to a head in 2540 when Ted Flannagan, a mercenary captain of African blood, ascended to the Presidency of Georgia. The South Carolina Hobbses had been some of the most enthusiastic upholders of the South’s renewed racial hierarchy. Flannagan’s ascension inspired black South Carolinians and emboldened the Nondenominational Church to take a much stronger stance against racism, citing Paul’s affirmation of the unity of mankind under Jesus Christ alongside the 14th Amendment. Georgia lent aid to South Carolina’s disgruntled nobles and blacks, while the US lent aid to its historic Gullah allies (which ended up spilling over into the lowcountry of Georgia). The Hobbses were overthrown and replaced by the local and part-black Isley dynasty. North Carolina’s Hobbses would pass away more gracefully some two centuries later, succeeded by a cadet branch.

    These many centuries later, South Carolina is ruled by Governor Bluejay I Hayward. Bluejay presides over one of the most agrarian nations on the east coast. South Carolina holds the dubious distinction of holding more serfs than any state this side of the Great Plains. South Carolina seldom fights wars, many of its young men striking out west to join the military orders that fight against the Cowboy Hordes. The only military conflicts are the perpetual low-level skirmishes with raiders and rebellious vassals. For the time being, Bluejay has aligned himself with Georgia to protect against Federal influence in the lowcountry. But who’s to say what the future holds? Those who sit the Palmetto Throne are infamous for their hot bloodedness, and no South Carolinian can stand to be under the yoke of any one master for too long.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
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  15. Richard Drummond Well-Known Member

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    I like what you have done with South Carolina. Very simple but realistic
     
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  16. Flashman A Real Go-Getter

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    This is subject to change and open to suggestion.

    New Mexico Timeline

    2012: “Age of Aquarius” declared by New Agers across the Southwest, prompting many New Agers from across the country to move to the local New Age communities of Santa Fe, Tumacamori, Arcosanti, Sedona and Roswell.

    2060: New Mexico and Arizona declare independence from the US.

    2150: As infrastructure collapses, Arizona moves the capital from Flagstaff to Phoenix. State control in Arizona and New Mexico wanes beyond the Gila River and the Rio Grande, respectively. The Navajo Nation seizes on the opportunity and began operating as an independent government in those regions far from the rivers.

    2200: A great drought strikes the Southwest, leading to the Californian Warring Period. Likewise in Arizona and New Mexico, a movement of rebellious laypeople known as the “Simpletons” set about destroying what little remains of science and order.

    2205: The New Agers of Tumacacori seize control over Nogales to sure up their declining agricultural output.

    2210: The New Age city-states of Sedona and Arcosanti confederate and capture Flagstaff from government forces. They declare themselves the legitimate government of Arizona. However, Flagstaff stopped being of any importance decades ago, making the move almost entirely symbolic.

    2220: The Navajo Nation invades war-wracked New Mexico to escape the droughts of Dinetah. The Chief of the Navajo, Lorenzo Nez, declares himself the rightful governor of New mexico. The Navajo Nation, having already been influenced by Sedonan missionaries, converts to the New Age in Santa Fe. This is considered the “First Dynasty” by New Age historiographers.

    2230: The Aquarians of Tumacacori take control over the city of Tuscon, which they rename Two Sun. This is the first major city to be taken by the Aquarians of New Mexico.

    2240: The city of Gila, having fallen under the sway of the Cult of the Gila Monster, rebels against the government in Phoenix. They appeal to New Mexico for aid.

    2250: The sovereigns of Sedona, Gila and Two Sun converge on Phoenix and raze the city, and the New Age is left as the official religion of Arizona. However, unable to answer who should ascend the governorship, the Aquarian War begins.

    2300: Two Sun comes out on top and unites Arizona.

    2330: The Dineh begin resettling Dinetah, bringing New Mexico into conflict with Arizona.

    2340: Governor Fighting Hawk of Arizona conquers the Pecos Country and Sacred Roswell, driving the Pecos Horsemen to Oklahoma.

    2350: Fighting Hawk invades Arizona. The three lands are united under New Mexico, and the Dineh Confederacy is declared. This is the Second Dynasty.

    2400: The first pyramids are constructed.

    2425: The Third Dynasty begins, and the capital is moved to Santa Fe.

    2500: The Fourth Dynasty begins, and the capital is moved to Gila.

    2570: The Fifth Dynasty begins, and the capital is returned to Albuquerque.

    2580: New Mexico seizes the San Luis valley from the Kuluradi, giving it control over the headwaters of the Rio Grande.

    2600: The Great Pyramids of Albuquerque are constructed.

    2640: New Mexico is sacked by Okie cowboys, forcing them to pay tribute. The Arizonans, seeing this as a great indignity, launch a rebellion.

    2650: A Vegasite dynasty - the Sixth Dynasty - gains control over the Confederacy. The Arizonan Revolt is briefly quelled.

    2680: The third president of the Vegasite dynasty is murdered, and the Seventh Dynasty begins.

    2690: The President launches punitive raids against the Okies and succeeds.

    2710: With the loss of New Mexico’s army invading Vegas, the Confederacy is thrown into chaos.

    2730: The Gray President attempts to make radical reforms of the Confederacy. This marks the beginning of the Eighth Dynasty. The capital is moved to Truth or Consequences, and the religion is radically reformed to the chagrin of the temple priests.

    2740: The Gray President struggles to fend off renewed raids by the Okies.

    2745: Weakened by the Okie raids, Arizona and El Paso breaks free from New Mexico. The Gray President is killed by his army and the Ninth Dynasty is declared. The Gray President’s son is spirited away to Roswell. The soldiers of Arizona follow - though the boy and his mother are reported killed, rumor has it that they fled further east and joined the Okies.

    2800: Arizona conquers El Paso.

    2950: Colonel Bill Cisneros of Phoenix ascends the throne of Arizona and conquers New Mexico, beginning the Tenth Dynasty, the current ruling dynasty of New Mexico.

    2975: Bill Cisneros dies. His sons race from Albuquerque to Roswell to claim the throne. The losers are strangulated.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
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  17. Richard Drummond Well-Known Member

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    This is actually a good idea. Allows us to see how events across America work well with one another. Perhaps next we can work on California, Deseret and the Pacific Northwest.
     
  18. Flashman A Real Go-Getter

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    I actually already started on the Pac NW one - in fact, it was supposed to be the first. It was just meant to help me organize my own thoughts, same with the New Mexican one but figured why not post it.
     
  19. Richard Drummond Well-Known Member

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    That's cool. I've got my own timeline which is heavily inspired by the events of the past threads including this one as well as some other sources. If anyone is interested, I could post it.
     
  20. Flashman A Real Go-Getter

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    Confederacy of New Mexico: Internal Relations I
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    New Mexico is a Confederacy, but not just within the land once known as New Mexico: rather, it is a league between the sovereign states of Arizona, Dinetah, and of course New Mexico, each presided over by a Chief. But then there is the fact that the President of the Confederacy is afforded almost unlimited power as a living manifestation of the gods, his residence in New Mexico essentially making it first among equals. But even this image of the President as an unchallenged and omnipotent deity is often complicated by reality.

    Below is a survey of the complex relations of power within the New Mexican state, beginning with those regions that are not fully integrated into the Confederacy..

    The Borderlands
    Nogales
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    Nogales is one of the most historic of the New Age. This was city captured by the Aquarians of Tumacacori in the Great Drought of the 200s, and it was with this power base that they launched the conquest of Two Sun - the first major city of Arizona to be conquered by the New Agers. Nevertheless, Nogales lay at the edge of effective New Mexican control, with the President in Albuquerque so far and the Broncos so near. Though it is technically a Commune within the Confederacy, it is not classed as a part of Arizona, and the Communarch often acts as an independent sovereign.

    Nogales serves primarily as New Mexico’s main over-land route to the Mexican Empire itself, as well as serving as the main trade post for the many northern tribes. This has meant the people of Nogales have been influenced by the morose cult of the Santa Muerte, giving its people a reputation for harboring bad vibes.

    In times of stability, camel-jockeys may travel unabated from Nogales to the city of Tumacacori, and then from there to the metropolis of Two Sun. In times of instability, however, tribal raiders come from out of the hills that encircle the Santa Cruz valley. To the east are the Pinemen of the Canelo Hills. Enthusiastic worshippers of the Santa Muerte, they are known to crucify lost travelers to bring the rain. To the west are the Patagones of the Patagonian hills. They are a Chihuahuan tribe, riding around on pusbikes and occasionally raiding caravans. They have an animistic religion that worships the sky islands as conduits to the divine.

    Grand Canyon
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    Being a site of natural majesty, it is no surprise that the Grand Canyon has taken on a holiness to the Aquarians of New Mexico. They believe that it Though the President in Albuquerque would certainly like to hold the canyon under his direct control, the distances involved make it nearly impossible. Control over Dinetah is difficult enough, fractured and arid landscape that it is. The Grand Canyon lay at the very edge of what the President may exercise anything resembling sovereignty. Thus, the country is not assigned to a Communarch as truly integrated provinces are but by a War Chief who reports to the Communarch of Flagstaff.

    But even the War Chief from his seat in the cliff-pueblo of Grand Canyon Village has trouble controlling the Grand Canyon. The tribes that call the canyon home are known to be wild. Descended from tourists, park rangers, and a smattering of natives, when the Regression came these tribals quickly devolved into abject savagery - idolatry, inbreeding, cannibalism. They spent and still spend most of their time fighting petty wars with one another. Occasionally, the constantly battling tribes will confederate and direct their fury upon the peoples who live near to the Canyon. The Great Drought of the 200s prompted the most wide-ranging raids yet, reaching as far as Vegas and Flagstaff. The Navajo took to calling them the Anasazi, as a reference to the half-legendary race of ancient barbarians they once did battle with. They themselves adopted embraced the name.

    The Anasazi are death-cultists. They believe that they are already dead, and that they died during the Regression. They believe the chasm is the pit of hell, and it is their duty to serve the diabolical gods that dwell in the chasms and caves of the canyon by bringing them sacrifices. When they die a second time, they join the ranks of the demons of the canyons and, if they lived a good life (meaning a life of revelry and successful raids), they may be remembered not only generally but by name as gods. Though the cult developed in relative isolation from the Santa Muerte, they have adopted her as one of their chief deities.

    The Vegasites were the first people to subdue these tribes by waging a genocidal campaign of extermination. In the 2500s a peace was drawn up and the Anasazi that forced them to pledge sovereignty to Vegas, to send men to serve as auxiliaries in his army, and to mellow their violent religion. Following the fall of Vegas in the 28th century, the Anasazi resumed warring with one another, but eventually the Aquarians arrived and imposed their rule over them. Though the War-Chief does his best to exact tribute and maintain order, the countless crags and ravines have allowed the Anasazi to maintain much of their old way of life, albeit much toned down from the pre-Vegasite conquest era.

    Lower Gila
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    The Gila Valley is not a single state but a series of independent townships stretching from Gila Bend to Dome. They exist at the crossroads between New Mexico and Bajo Colorado, and are often divided as to which side they have more in common with. On the one hand, Yuma is so near and Albuquerque is so far. The culture of small-holding independent farmers has more in common with the city states of Bajo Colorado than it does with the despotate of New Mexico. On the other, the inhabitants of the Gila Valley are largely of the New Age, worshipping the Gila Monster as their patron deity. For the time being Bajo Colorado is weak while New Mexico is strong, so the Gilites pay their tribute to the communarch of Buckeye. The President is currently drafting plans to invade Bajo Colorado through the Gila Valley, though this will no doubt draw in the Californians.

    Western Arizona
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    Western Arizona is a desolate land, stretching across the northern Sonora and the Coconino plateau. The people here are pueblo-dwellers and shepherds, much like the nomads of Nevada except not quite so impoverished. The Arizonans shepherds are almost entirely of the New Age, converted long ago by Sedonan mission work. However, this savage country has never been fully integrated into New Mexico. Occasionally the tribes will raid Dinetah and Arizona proper, but for the most part they give slaves and tribute to the Governor of Arizona.

    Pecos
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    New Mexico has always had a troubled relationship with the Pecos Valley. While it is very close to the heartland of New Mexico, it is separated by the formidable Sangre de Cristos mountains - historically, these peaks have been considered the spiritual limit of the Navajo nation. Nevertheless, the river is fertile, and its proximity to sacred Carlsbad and Roswell make control of it economically and spiritually vital to the Presidency.

    In the early days of the Regression, it fell under the control of the so-called Pecos Cowboys. The Pecos Cowboys were a tribe of horsemen influenced by the New Age who worshipped the Gray and Roswell, forcing the agricultural people in the region to pay them hefty tribute. In the 2340s, with the aid of Mescalero Indians, then-governor Fighting Hawk conquered the valley and drove most of the horsemen to distant Oklahoma where they would become the Okies. But the valley would remain constantly threatened, both by the Okies and by the other tribes of Texan cowboys. The valley has fallen many times, but the spiritual importance of Roswell means that the Confederacy will always reconquer it sooner or later. With the rise of the Anderson clan and the decline of the Okies and most Texan clans, the valley has enjoyed a relative peace, but the threat always remains that the Andersons will turn their eyes westward.

    The Pecos Valley is governed by its own Sub-Governor.
     
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