Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Flashman, Jun 21, 2017.
Okay, to the next phase: What stuff will be the main trade goods between NA-EU trans-Atlantic trade?
Walrus Ivory?? Chocolate? Priests from the Quebec and Roman Catholic Church?
Perhaps tea is grown in Mississippi and merchants from America take it to the Europeans. I assume its cheaper than getting tea from Asia.
Coffee too? Maybe the idea that you don't have to deal with Muslims at all is appealing to the Church in rome.
Perhaps that would indeed be the case though I assume it'd be more expensive to get goods from Latin America than the Middle East.
Though its a bit off topic, I wonder if the Christian/Muslim border had shifted heavily in the Old World. Have the Muslims attacked Iberia again or Italy. Have they pushed deeper into the Balkans or have the Greeks seized swathes of Anatolia perhaps.
I think that the various christian kingdoms of Europe and Russia might have launched something like the Anatolian and Maghrebi crusades.
Also getting coffee and tea from North America is probably too far a journey for people to conduct most of the time. What did the Norse trade? Not much. And considering that Eastern North America doesn't have anything distinct from Western Europe there might not be much trade period.
I'm assuming that initially there was a resurgence of Islamic power as the playing field was levelled out but then the Christians eventually got the upperhand. I remember a long time ago, southern Italy fell to Muslims before being liberated through Crusade and that Turkey was inhabited by Muslim Turks and the Maghreb was conquered by the Tuareg.
That is true. Probably it'll just be exotic/luxury goods.
I assumed a Christian advantage because unlike the original fall of Rome, most of Europe and Western Russia is dense enough that nomadic tribes would not be present. Thus the problems that mostly prevented Christian nations from decisively opposing Islamic expansion in the first place would not be present. Also the conditions that allowed the Arabs to conquer so much were fairly unique.
I won't be commenting further because it's taking away from the thread. PM if you want to go deeper
Also there is a distinct lack of exotic goods that differentiate Western Europe and Eastern North America, so trade would be hard. That being said, Greenlanders might travel to St John's to get the goods that they need which would otherwise be too expensive to obtain from Europe. Some incidental contact might happen that way.
This ought be the last of the Greenland conversation as teshkyman said, but I wanted to throw in my two cents.
Greenland probably exists largely as a source of ivory for Europe. Americans can get it from the Canadian Arctic, so its not super common for Greenlanders to sell in the Americas. That said, it probably does happen from time to time, and I'm sure Greenlandic whaling/fishing/logging expeditions come to the Canadian arctic and Labrador every now and then, and maybe even sell stuff in Newfoundland every now and then after fishing the Grand Banks. Contact between Greenland/Europe and America is probably somewhat more common than Laskan/Asian contact with the Americas due to the shorter distances and the prevailing currents.
It's probably fairly rare for mainland Europeans to end up in Greenland, with most trade happening from Greenland-Iceland and then from Iceland-Europe. Assuming Greenland goes Catholic, it could take on some secondary importance in terms of maintain a minimal contact between the Western and Occidental church. Nothing big, the Churches are probably in Communion with the Quebecois possessing an "Occidental Cardinal" who is effectively pope, but they're kept appraise to changes in Popes, big announcements, crusades etc. In the last thread (or possibly the one before) it was suggested that the Quebecois Crusade was launched after they were appraised to a crusade launched in Europe. Maybe to make things interesting the diocese of Greenland is technically under the Occidental Cardinal's authority?
As others have pointed out there may be times when American goods (and especially Southron cash crops) are cheaper to import than African or East Asian goods, but these situations are likely rare and unstable. The only things that provide any interest on either side of the Atlantic from the other are curios and renowned luxury goods. The Americans control territory in Newfoundland, so its possible that they have pretty good contact with Europe.
Flash man raises some good point though I’d agree, we should avoid diverting too far. We left off at the Carolinas IIRC.
I remember in a previous thread, the two were once united and suffered extreme decentralisation
Decentralisation is likely a perennial problem for the Southerners due to A) its agrarian character B) its extremely rigid ideas of class and the rights afforded to aristocracy creating lots of smallholding minor nobles who will throw a shit fit if a government tries to bring them to heel and C) the lasting historical impact of the state degeneration that occurred during the era of the American Evangelists. Extreme decentralisation may mean that even Georgia is something of a paper tiger compared to say Ohio or Iowa or Quebec.
As to the Carolinas, its been established that at one point South Carolina was under the control of Georgia, and Georgian control possibly extended through North Carolina and possibly even into Virginia, at least in theory.
Then, around the 2500s, the Carolinas passed on to the brothers of the last Beauregard's First Lady. They've been quasi-independent ever since and have tended to align with Georgia. Presumably, their largest geopolitical threat aside from themselves is the United States and the Gullah.
I imagine the region is pretty peaceful as seen in White's map depicting common 'war-routes'. Perhaps this causes a tradition for younger sons to sign up in the US Navy or serve as mercenaries in the Caribbean or elsewhere since the Yankees from New England are the prominent mercenaries in East America.
I wonder how far the Catholic Church in Latin America has diverged from its counterparts from its counterparts in Quebec and Europe. Since I could see Santa Muerte getting officially canonized after her cult exploded following the regression or if you're feeling really crazy merged her with mother Mary. At the very least I could see the worship of her having spread across the trade routes connecting North and South America.
Also picture Latin American crusaders rider into battle wielding Macuahuitl instead swords.
Santa Muerte is definitely going to be a deity of great importance. I think she will supercede the Virgin Mary in importance instead of merging with her. The macuahuitl is inferior to the sword so I can imagine it will only be a symbolic weapon.
The people of Bajo Colorado have taken to almost exclusively worshipping La Santa Muerte as their prime deity.
I'm kinda picturing an evolution of the macuahuitl that could be best described as a sword length, double sided cleaver blade. Heavy as hell but if properly used can chop and carve its way through both armor and shields with a brutal abandon.
Serrated swords are rare in the historical record for a reason
I'd see it more as a stack of axe heads than a saw. Less slice, more chop
I think that many saints have become "gods" in the Mexican Orthodox Church. Plus the old Aztec gods becoming saints too
With Jesus ,God and the Virgin Mary becoming the Royal family of the gods. Add Mary Magdalene in there too
Sounds like a good idea to me
Separate names with a comma.