Medieval America Mark III

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Flashman, Jun 21, 2017.

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  1. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    Yeah the literary rate probably plummeted rock bottom compared to the pre-regression age.

    There's probably a popular theme about man growing decedent and being punished by god with loss of their ancient wonders in some of the more current stories.
    A lot of scientific knowledge has probably either been forgotten or warped into semi mystical pseudoknowledge (looking at you eco-buddhists). There might be "some" preserved records from the pre regression age, gathering dust in a nondemoninational, scientologist or mormom library.

    Mad Alchemists who wish to harness the power of the Ancients to unleash horrific destruction upon their foes is probably a popular theme of in universe stories.
     
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  2. Threadmarks: Carribean Trade

    tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    Though this is getting a bit ahead ourselves, looking at Mexico and Central America there are some good analogues to old-world areas.

    Central Mexico is most similar to central spain but with volanoes and a possible theocracy ruled by the god-president of Mexico City. The Atlantic coast doesn't have a great analogue, the best one is probably Cuba, similar climates. This region along with Tabasco and Cuba are probably most similar to South-East Asia, Cambodia and Vietnam. Sinaloa is California but hotter. The southern Atlantic coast from Peurto Vallarta to Oaxaca is most similar to China's coast along Fujian and Zhejiang provinces, isolated and mountainous. The isthumus of Tehuantepec is probably the principle trade route between the Pacific and Atlantic It's populated along the entire route and there are good port cities at each end. Crossing further south requires large detours and dangerous travelling through jungles.

    From Guatemala to Panama, this area is probably most like Indonesia. Makes sense, both are volcanic arcs. The Pacific coast is populated up until the Darien Gap. The Atlantic coast is probably all jungle and swamp.

    As for trade routes, I think that ships might travel from harbor to harbor from Los Angeles to Panama carrying Cocaine and whatnot. However, the Pacific Coast of Colombia is all jungle and swamp. So the primary trade route from North America and the Carribean to Peru and the Southern Cone should probably have to loop from Cuba to the Lesser Antilles to the Venezuelan Coast. From there it either passes through Caracas or Maracaibo up onto the Andes. Then to Bogota and onto Peru.

    But Central America should generally be pretty isolated, it's a bit of a dead end. Mexico would be this regions primary outlet to the world.

    Heres a quick mockup

    upload_2019-6-29_0-27-15.png
     
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  3. Richard Drummond Well-Known Member

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    From the previous threads, there was a Mexican Empire and Colombian Empire. We could have a Colombian Empire stretching to the Darien whilst Mexico survives in Mesoamerica as a Catholic (albeit highly divergent) Empire with the King as Pope.
     
  4. Richard Drummond Well-Known Member

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    @tehskyman
    You once had a TL on the Mississippi diversion. With the Event/Regression etc. the Mississippi is not going to be maintained and that's going to screw Louisiana up. New Orleans is likely not very important which is a very big divergent from White's works since New Orleans is very possibly the largest city in the USA. Since I assume you are probably the most knowledgable on this subject in the thread, what have you got to say?
     
  5. Flashman A Real Go-Getter

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    Teshkyman actually brought this up earlier in the thread. I decided by fiat to handwave it and say the Mississippi is more or less along the same course.
     
  6. Richard Drummond Well-Known Member

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    That's a shame, but so be it. Sticks with what White had
     
  7. Richard Drummond Well-Known Member

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    Found this map[​IMG]

    What on earth was White doing with it? Could this be a planning map, maybe a historical map, maybe its an idea somebody else came up with. Perhaps its the future he views for Medieval America several centuries down the line. Its called pearcy.gif btw.
     
  8. Richard Drummond Well-Known Member

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    I've also found this map[​IMG]
    Notice Russell/Pearcy. Seems that these two are people working with White and this is the America they came up with. That probably means that the above map is the version they came up with. Thus we have a completely different version of the Atlas of Medieval America co-existing alongside White's. Notice how Alabama is big instead of Mississippi and then look at the city map and you see a large Alabaman city even bigger than New Orleans. Meanwhile, Chicagoland is a sizeable power and Bailey Iowa doesn't exist.
    This is White's map
    upload_2019-6-29_16-4-55.png Note that he makes the Western half of America more important but weakens the importance of the Great Lakes, Florida and the Appalachians whilt increasing the Northeast's importance.

    As well as that, turns out that this cross here, [​IMG], is actually the western heresy. It's name is afterall w-heresy.gif. It is a Christian cross which makes me think of the Templars so what's going on? Same way there was an eastern Heresy in the South, there is a heresy in the West which is very probably Christian. [​IMG] Here the cross appears again but in a different shape.
     
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  9. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

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    I am with Richard Drummond, a shame. I would have imagined the River stays more or less the same even with the Regression, or it is not hard to maintain or revert it, so New Orleans stays the major port city of America. It seems the kind of thing even a post-apocalyptic or low-tech society would still put major work into.
     
  10. tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    We can handwave it. I can also say that the river diversion happened and that when they rebuilt along the new route, they also rebuilt New Orleans. And that this happened early enough that memories of the river diversion have since faded away.

    It doesn't really matter.
     
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  11. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

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    That is exactly what I figured and hoped would happen, that even with a disaster the current course was able to be restored, even perhaps naturally, after letting the diversion finally happen. Or that all of New Orleans just shifted a good couple miles west. :p I just would like the physical and human geography to stay as similar as possible to OTL.

    (admittedly I also find this concept simply fascinating)
     
  12. tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    Part of the worry of the Mississippi shifting in the industrial era is that you'd have to abandon Baton Rouge and New Orleans and that trade would be massively affected. Food prices would spike and bad things happen when people are hungry.

    In a time of subsidence agriculture and localism taken to the max, the Mississippi River shifting is at worse an inconvenience. It means no coffee and cocaine this year. It's the kind of thing that get recorded by some wonks and then promptly forgotten within a couple of generations

    Also, the new Mississippi would be passable to medieval boats within 5-6 months.
     
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  13. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

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    That makes plenty of sense. Would New Orleans in its current location still be a big port or replaced for good? IE a Aqueleia/Venice or Galveston/Houston scenario with New Orleans the abandoned port. Particularly in the 900-years-from-now world.

    I agree entirely with handwaving for the project and this is my last question on it, but I don’t get to hear much on this and curious on the ‘natural’ course things would take.
     
  14. tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    Probably not unless its somewhere where exiles need to hide.
     
  15. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

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    Exactly what I needed to know, thank you tons!

    I suppose and it is my own preference in headcanon there will be too far many former residents attached to New Orleans that they build a New New Orleans wholesale even if now a couple miles away from the original/OTL city site, than an existing city like Morgan City taking the spotlight.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
  16. Richard Drummond Well-Known Member

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    Mind giving me some details in Private Message? I've got my own project but I'm very ignorant on the topic of a Mississippi diversion.
     
  17. Threadmarks: The Commonwealth of Georgia

    Imperial Inkstand-filler Well-Known Member

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    The Commonwealth of Georgia

    Georgia_Flag 2.jpeg

    System of Government: Hereditary Feudal Monarchy
    Leader: Governor Elias II Spratt
    Selection of Leaders: Hereditary Primogeniture
    Population: 2,700,000
    Totemic Symbol: Magnolia Flower
    Religion: American Non-Denominational Church

    Perhaps the preeminent power of the old South, and the only eastern power capable of challenging the otherwise unquestionable superiority of the Commonwealth of Ohio, the Commonwealth of Georgia is a large, populous, prosperous nation along the south-eastern coast of Dixie. The history of the Commonwealth of Georgia is inextricably tied to the old, now unused Presidency of Georgia, and the long-standing struggle for dominance between the northern and southern halves of the American Non-Denominational Church.

    The Presidency of Georgia

    “One Nation, Under God, Indivisible” - that is the phrase which came to define the heart of the American Non-Denominational Church. Yet, despite the unitary sentiment, the Church has never presented a unified force to the world. Non-Denominational forces clash across the feudal heartland, District Supervisors bicker and divide in the center of the church, and Governors seek to gain advantage over one another. Typically, the concentration of District Supervisors in the north has placed the south at a distinct disadvantage in these politics, and made the Non-Denominational Church a much more northern-oriented force. Despite this, however, the position of President remained a revered one, and one which remained unused for centuries. This changed, however, with the Council of Columbia and the Coronation of President Rhett I Beauregard in 2403 by the Chief Justice of the Non-Denominational Church.

    To understand the Council of Columbia, one must first understand the preceding century. With the collapse of society and the beginning of the new middle ages, the South was affected worse than most - the loss of modern conveniences such as air conditioning and pesticides made the climate unbearable for many, while man-made problems, most commonly race wars born out of pre-Event enmities, broke many Southerners off into clannish hubs. By the early 2300s, however, this had begun to see a re-integration of society into many hundreds of small polities, all proudly independent. The South, however, soon came under a new threat in the form of the Tchaktaw, the first of many nomadic peoples from the west, predating the New Israelites. Tchaktaw raids and conquests pushed in as far as Augusta and Columbia, even threatening the coastal cities of Savannah and Charleston. Tchaktaw conquests, however, proved to have less staying power, and soon they were integrated into the local population, ultimately being subsumed into the Southern culture. This did, however, create many new, powerful polities, the most substantial of which was the State of Georgia under the House of Beauregard.

    Over the last three decades of the 2300s, the Beauregards expanded the power and influence, taking the important cities of Savannah, Atlanta, Columbus, and Augusta, while their seat remained at the centrally-located Macon. They expanded north, absorbing South Carolina and protecting the Chief Justice’s city of Charleston, and even held the far-off District Supervisors of Montgomery and Raleigh under their dominion. In a bid to curry favor with the newly-elected District Supervisor who had fallen victim to mob politics in Washington, Governor Rhett Beauregard placed the city under siege and secured the Chief Justice’s position. Three years later, the Council of Columbia declared that Rhett Beauregard and his line would hereafter be crowned the Presidents of Georgia, and hold in trust the lands from “the Mississippi to the James.” Such a declaration was far grander than the Beauregards’ holdings, but the unprecedented power of the Beauregards in the South had thrust it into the “Beauregardian Renaissance” and brought learning and culture back into the South.

    The 2400s saw the golden age of the Beauregards come to a close as the empire steadily militarized; the many western territories, to protect against nomadic invaders, were reorganized as small marches, which would go on to give Mississippi it’s martial character. The Appalachian regions, culturally aloof and impossibly difficult to control, began to break away, as it was simply too difficult for the Presidents to go into the mountains and dislodge the inhabitants. N’awleens and Washington, those two great thessalocracies, ate away at the coasts of Georgia, with the Gullahs of the Sea Islands rising up against the Beauregards and even killing a President in 2471 - with the assistance of the United States.

    The House of Beauregard would ultimately fail in 2492, and see the splintering of the Georgian heartlands. The Carolinas would each fall under the dominion of one of the brothers of the last First Lady of Georgia, while the newly-formed Commonwealth of Mississippi would expand and push the Georgian borders back from Montgomery. Georgia itself, though still large and wealthy, was divided into several competing counties, with no less than five families holding the Presidency between 2492 and 2540, when the biggest shock of all came. Ted Flannagan, a mercenary captain with acknowledged African blood, would usurp the title of President, theoretically making him second only to the Chief Justice within the realms of the American Non-Denominational Church.

    Flannagan, despite his participation in a watershed moment for Southern history, was unable to establish a lasting line in Georgia. That would take until 2569, when Solon Venerable would take the throne. He would only be able to secure the stability of his realm, however, by making a deal with the Supreme Court, whereby he forewent the title of President in favor of Governor, renouncing Georgia’ unique place in the sun of the Non-Denominational Church. The Venerables, however, would be able to restore Georgia’s great power - in the 2590s, they retook Montgomery from the Mississippians, and launched several successful campaigns against the Gullahs. Most notably, Savannah would grow tremendously under their patronage, surpassing her traditional superior, Charleston, in size and wealth.

    The Venerables could not last forever, however, and the disastrous drowning of Governor Wallace II Venerable in the campaigns against the Cajuns would see the rise of the powerful and respected House of Spratt, who were traditionally serving as the Marcher Lords of the Appalachians. From their base in Atlanta, where they protected the District Supervisor, the Spratts would expand their power outwards not through war, but through marriage. As a result, the last two centuries have seen Georgia’s power expand softly. Though North and South Carolina are not bound to Georgia directly, the marriages and titles held mean that they fall under the sway of Georgia more often than not. Cultivating positive relationship with both the United States and Louisiana, meanwhile, has been important in maintaining Georgia’s wealth and keeping the textiles they produce on the market. Most importantly, Georgia, with the support of Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina, has been the primary bulwark against Ohio’s power in the Supreme Court, a powerful advocate for the South in the religious realm.

    The People of Georgia

    In many ways, the Georgians are the consummate Southerners. They are deeply religious, immensely prideful, honor-obsessed, and stubbornly independent. The clannish nature of the South for centuries after the Event has never quite gone away, even as they have come to inhabit far more sophisticated political and cultural structures. As a result, local customs and local rivalries are common in Georgia, which has resulted in the development of the “Founding Fathers” culture of the region, where nearly every village and town has a legendary hero or two who helped found the village, the Commonwealth, or the whole Non-Denominational Church. These legends make up the foundation of the rich Georgian literary tradition, which goes back to the days of the Beauregardian Renaissance. While Georgia does not have the musical tradition that Mississippi does, Mississippian Troupes have become common in Georgia, where they have found a rich culture of poetry, heroic stories, and travelogues.

    The nobility of Georgia reflect the same kind of Southern Gentility that those of Mississippi do. They are expected to be hospitable and respectful, deferent to social superiors, well-spoken and well-mannered, and willing to defend their honor. The Southern Vendetta, always couched in an aggrieved innocence, is practically and art form amongst the Georgians, and colors many of their interactions with outside nations. Georgian nobles are expected to be Warrior-Gentlemen, their wives, sisters, and daughters charming hostesses, and their serfs productive Christians.

    While debt slavery is a fact of life in Georgia just as it is in Mississippi and other Southern nations, in Georgia the presence of urban areas has spurred on a more well-developed economic system. Debt slavery, referred to in Georgia as Indentured Servitude, takes the form of loans which are contracted through official moneylenders, and put into contracts. In this manner, peasants are not bound to the same land for generations, and can move to some extent. This means that villages can expand into towns, and that nobles must put in some amount of effort to make staying on their land attractive to the commoners.

    It is important to mention one culture which does not lay entirely within Georgia’s borders - the Gullah. A people with a strange language and intimate knowledge of the seas along the Atlantic Coast, the Gullahs have long been a thorn in the side of the Georgians. They often seek independence from both Augusta and Washington, and have played the two sides off of one another for centuries. Yet they are also some of the finest sailors and navigators in the Non-Denominational world, and their presence in the cities of Savannah and the Georgian Coast have gone a long way in ensuring the rise of those regions as mercantile centers.

    The Economy and Cities of Georgia

    Georgia’s economy lives and dies on her production of cotton and textiles. Though cotton is not the only good produced in Georgia - timber, tobacco, and dyes also come from her fields - cotton textiles are the only value-added product that comes out of Georgia, and is the lifeblood of the cities of the Georgian coast. Most of the textiles are spun in Augusta, the largest and wealthiest city of Georgia, from which it is transported either east to Savannah, Beaufort, Sapelo, or Brunswick, where it can be traded with the many cities along the coast, or west, where it can enter the Mississippi trade routes and go either to N’awleens or Saint Louis.

    Augusta, the largest city of Georgia, is also the largest and most important city in the South. From N’awleens to Baltimore, no city in the region can match Augusta in size, at over 150,000 people, nor in importance to the economy or culture of the region. The University of Augusta is the most well-regarded university in the whole of the South, founded by members of the Beauregard Dynasty over 300 years ago, and continues to produce many of the finest minds in the South. Augusta’s architecture is well-known for being the product of the late Venerable Dynasty, with telltale close columns, balconies, quatrefoil flourishes, and brightly-colored stucco exteriors. Augusta is the home to a massive amount of cotton spinners, dyers, and weavers, and their products are known throughout the Non-Denominational world.

    The cities of the Georgian coast, dominated by Savannah, are equally as important. Fed by the many long, navigable rivers of Georgia, these cities are well-placed along trade routes between the Gulf, the Caribbean, and the Northeast to take advantage of the many merchants sailing these routes. For several centuries, these cities have enjoyed large degrees of autonomy from the Presidents and later Governors of Georgia, while also receiving their protection. The result of this is that the Georgian Coast is one of the wealthiest regions in the South, and contributes heavily to the Governor’s coffers. Savannah is chief among these cities, but the cities of Beaufort, Sapelo, and Brunswick have also grown to not insignificant sizes and become important parts of the local trade network.

    Meanwhile, Columbus is the last major city of Georgia, where the city’s strategic location on the Chattahoochee River has allowed it to play a similar role to Savannah in funneling cotton trade south towards the Gulf. Columbus has always sat in the shadow of Augusta, Montgomery, and Mobile, and is perhaps better known for its impressive Hippodrome and the many horse races that take place there. Macon and Atlanta, while not major cities in their own right, also deserve mentions. Macon, the old capital of the Beauregard Presidents, still shows signs of their power, with a massive cathedral housing an impressive dome and collection of mosaics, as well as a powerful fortress. Atlanta, meanwhile, is the seat of Georgia’s District Supervisor, and serves as the location of many pilgrimages in Georgia itself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
  18. Imperial Inkstand-filler Well-Known Member

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    Dec 7, 2014
    Two things regarding the thread:
    1. The link for the Commonwealth of Ohio actually links to the Genesee County post.
    2. With the Caribbean, my assumption had always been that the region is divided into several city-states and smaller principalities, with a political order not unlike that of Renaissance Italy, and that it was not uniformly Voodoo, but possessed a variety of religions, though they shared common traits as secretarial states. With that in mind, is it alright if I write up a post about Havana and its position in the world?
     
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  19. tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    IMO, the Carribbean probably alternates between many little states and united thassolocracies like Indonesia or the Mediterranean.

    Havana is probably a huge city, similar in size to New Orleans because it lies at the intersection of the trade routes from Mexico and Central America via the Yucatan, the trade routes from South America via the Lesser Antilles and the trade from North America. Probably Constantinople-like.
     
  20. tehskyman Engineer for the money

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    Jul 8, 2013
    Here's a question on my mind.

    Europe never really dealt with massive natural disasters. The worst being localized hailstorms and occasional gale winds.

    I thought about how the communities of Medieval America deal with hurricanes, especially the sedentary agricultural ones?

    The Carribean farmers will probably have harvested everything by the late summer/early fall, hunkering down for the hurricane season and planting a small crop. Farmers in the American south seldom have to deal with hurricanes and when they do, it's usually as heavy winds and rain. The coastal areas which are most affected by hurricanes are generally swamps anyways.
     
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