Medieval America Co-op Project
- Thread starter Jord839
- Start date
Tom, there was no secession in Korea.
Post-WWII the US occupied South Korea and the USSR occupied North Korea and all that followed was from a nation being split and then rebuilt and governed on two completely different premises.
It seems to me that a loss of energy sources would be a good basis but this would also require explaining how it happened fast enough to prevent alternatives from being developed yet slow enough to prevent the major population centers and surrounding areas from being ravaged.
Post-WWII the US occupied South Korea and the USSR occupied North Korea and all that followed was from a nation being split and then rebuilt and governed on two completely different premises.
It seems to me that a loss of energy sources would be a good basis but this would also require explaining how it happened fast enough to prevent alternatives from being developed yet slow enough to prevent the major population centers and surrounding areas from being ravaged.
Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Seems to me, that wouldn't eliminate all the guns, and there are millions of guns in the United States, and most of them were built to last a long time. Seems to me a lack of energy might knock us back into the early 19th century where we are forced to rely on wind, and sail. The guns would still work though as they did in the 19th century as well. In order to get to the Middle Ages, some mechanism needs to be devised to prevent knowlege from being passed from one generation to the next, we need to forget the movable type printing press and the patent office, and it seems the only agency that might possibly pull it off would be a giant Orwellian government that controls and censures information, and frightens people into silence so they don't pass their knowledge and fail to educate their children for fear they would rat on them to the Government which would then proceed to make the parents "disappear".
I think normally people would pass on their know how, but if Big Brother is watching, that could lead to a new Dark Age. I'm not trying to be political, its just that its the only mechanism that I can imagine that would lead us to the Dark Ages. Some people disagree and think Orwellian Communism is a fine system, well its not my fault people dispute it. Its hard to talk about anything really without someone disputing it and making it political.
I really prefer alternate realities rather than the Big Decline in the Future, because then you don't have to explain how people became so stupid, and lost all that knowledge. "Survival of the dumbest" is what I'd call it, you'd have to devise a calamity that kills the smartest most educated people and destroys all the records yet spares the dumbest least educated people at the same time, can you do it?
Hendryk
Banned
It's happened before and it might happen again.
Aren't you the one who said that literacy was frivolous?
BTW I'm amused to see that you consider the breakdown of political order an improvement. Why then, I guess Somalia is an advanced society, it isn't burdened by a central government.
Look, while your whole debate is very interesting, you seem to be forgetting one thing: WE ARE NOT MAKING A REASON FOR THE DECLINE. Think whatever you want, but this is as we said an attempt at making a neo-medieval world as described in the Atlas. For simplicity's sake, and in keeping with the original work, we are not specifying any reason for the decline, just ASB/handwave it. That means, no guns or the like. I don't care if you're coming up with some theory about the decline, that's not the point of this thread.
And no politics in this thread, please. Take it to PC if you all want to argue. We don't need it cluttering up this thread.
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I fully agree on this.
And now, to get to the meat and potatoes :
How will we solve the de-evolvement of known technologies to create a new quasi-feudal society ?
My guess is that we should let the knowledge of modern weapon manufactoring and modern military as a whole deteriorate gradually. For instance, most of the electronic devices and computers are destroyed or damaged beyond repair and a lot of military vehicles are unusable due to a shortage of fuel, personnel, malfunctioning electronics (modern aircraft are going to become nearly unflyable), you name it... The surviving militaries have to revert to a WWII-like level to keep functioning, but as time passes, any functioning motor vehicles, whether military or not, become increasingly rare. The use of more elaborate firearms, like SMGs, assault rifles, hand-held machine guns and grenade/rocket launchers would decrease substantially, since they would be more harder to manufacture, unlike simpler rifles or revolvers. Thus, the overall military and civilian tech available would fall back to a pre-WWI like level in just a few years. Too much chaos going on to focus on repairing every piece of tech, too many skilled people killed in various small conflicts and the overall social turmoil. I wouldn't be surprised if the few occasionaly functioning simple radios would become a highly valued piece of tech. Further possible effects of technological and educational decline and an instable social situation on the continent could result in civilization gradually dropping back to a 19. century-like level. Many of the monarchies could survive a long time in this state, but if some horrible wide-scale revolution or another societal collapse come around, I wouldn't be surprised if most of North America reverted to a medieval standard of everyday living, with a lot of the "ancient" knowledge lost for a long time, waiting to be rediscovered or reinvented. The foundations for a feudal society ruled by the nobility and other higher ranking social groups would already been layed during the "Napoleonic-Civil War-Revolutionary War crossover" phase, so taking feudalism even further wouldn't be that hard...
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Alright, I've got a religion info thing. This is just a rough idea, and is open to suggestions.
Catholocism in North America
Since the Event, Catholocism has fallen quite far in its numbers of adherence and orthodox practice. In most of the land, former Catholics were brought into the new religions of the region. The most prominent example of this is the support that many catholics threw behind the establishment of the Nondenominational Church, so much so that much of the structure of that Church is a mixture of Catholic heirarchy and Old US secular government. While the dogma of the Nondenominational Church is largely protestant in nature, it is impossible to deny the influence of Catholicism in its formation. Another faith that relies heavily(some would say moreso) on Catholic ideas is the New Voodoo faith that exists in the southern swamps of Louisiana.
In these times, however, not all Catholics have been absorbed into the Nondenominational Church. While they are a tiny minority in most of America, Catholicism has remained strong in l'Etat Quebecois, and in the Latin kingdoms to the far South, as well as the Carribean.
Despite this loyalty to Rome in the Second Dark Age, there has been a marked difference in the views of Western Catholicism and European Catholicism. Without the ability to communicate with Rome very often, many bishops took it upon themselves to interpret doctrine and, considering their differing views with Rome in times prior to the Event, when this doctrine was exposed to the version that had taken hold in Europe, friction appeared.
Western Catholicism has taken a far more active role than its European cousin. While European Catholicism acts(or at least attempts to act) as a unifying and peaceful force among the squabbling polities of Europe as it stays clear of secular issues, the West has taken a far more active role in politics. Western Catholicism has instead decided that the only way to correctly spread the church's word is to involve itself directly, through supporting certain nobles openly, raising its own militant Orders, and providing food and services for the peasants.
Western Catholicism has raised the ire of the higher classes, and the gratitude of the lower ones. However, every day that it does not recieve communication from Rome is another day it drifts from Rome. Excommunication might not be out of the question if this trend continues.
Catholocism in North America
Since the Event, Catholocism has fallen quite far in its numbers of adherence and orthodox practice. In most of the land, former Catholics were brought into the new religions of the region. The most prominent example of this is the support that many catholics threw behind the establishment of the Nondenominational Church, so much so that much of the structure of that Church is a mixture of Catholic heirarchy and Old US secular government. While the dogma of the Nondenominational Church is largely protestant in nature, it is impossible to deny the influence of Catholicism in its formation. Another faith that relies heavily(some would say moreso) on Catholic ideas is the New Voodoo faith that exists in the southern swamps of Louisiana.
In these times, however, not all Catholics have been absorbed into the Nondenominational Church. While they are a tiny minority in most of America, Catholicism has remained strong in l'Etat Quebecois, and in the Latin kingdoms to the far South, as well as the Carribean.
Despite this loyalty to Rome in the Second Dark Age, there has been a marked difference in the views of Western Catholicism and European Catholicism. Without the ability to communicate with Rome very often, many bishops took it upon themselves to interpret doctrine and, considering their differing views with Rome in times prior to the Event, when this doctrine was exposed to the version that had taken hold in Europe, friction appeared.
Western Catholicism has taken a far more active role than its European cousin. While European Catholicism acts(or at least attempts to act) as a unifying and peaceful force among the squabbling polities of Europe as it stays clear of secular issues, the West has taken a far more active role in politics. Western Catholicism has instead decided that the only way to correctly spread the church's word is to involve itself directly, through supporting certain nobles openly, raising its own militant Orders, and providing food and services for the peasants.
Western Catholicism has raised the ire of the higher classes, and the gratitude of the lower ones. However, every day that it does not recieve communication from Rome is another day it drifts from Rome. Excommunication might not be out of the question if this trend continues.
Tom Kalbfus
Banned
How about a Radical Totalitarian Environmentalist back-to-nature group comes to power world-wide, seizes power and uses a police state to enforce its radical ideology, lets call them "Totalitarian Greens", these Greens don't fool around, if you don't get rid of technology, they'll kill you, and once they have taken over the whole world, they retain superior technology to force the world to abandon their's, and as they succeed, they abandon their technology for something lesser, so they use machine guns to force you to give up your rifles, then they use rifles to force you to give up your muskets, as they ram this down the population's through, they also outlaw education of children, and once the parents reach a certain age, they are executed Logan's Run style, thus leaving children uneducated. The radical environmentalists are eventually overthrown as the lower levels of technology and communication no longer allow them to maintain a World Government, and society factionalizes, this probably occurs in a world where the United States of America is long gone, the world is ruled by a totalitatian ideology, that thinks to take mankind down a peg, reduce his population so they they are more in balance with nature, that way nature can reclaim unused farms, buildings are knocked down in Manhattan and the Rubble is removed and dumped in the ocean with the last bit of technology and then that too is abandoned.
That's my theory on how it happened, because I maintain that in order for this thing to happen it would almost certainly have to have occured deliberately and be the design of the government - this also means that any technology that is recovered is more likely to be futuristic rather than modern, as this sort of society would of necessity have occured in the distant future, it could happen by nuclear war or plague.
The State of Tennessy
Totemic Symbol: Donkey
Government: Feudal Monarchy
Religion: Non-Denom
Capital: Memphis
Ruler: Governor Andrew III
Tennessy is, aside from the US itself, the big survivor of the New Middle Ages. Ruled by a hereditary governor who lives in the Great Pyramid of Memphis, Tennessy stretches from the town of Little Rock in the west to the town of Nashville in the east, and from Metropol in the north to Natchez in the south. Tennessy is the largest and most prosperous of the feadul American states, and the Governor can command the allegiance of the Colonels of Mississip, Alabam, Franklin, Kentuck, Missouri, and Iowa (how well depends on the specific governor). Tennessy's relations with the US is frost at best, but the Appalachians are between them so it doesn't matter much. Tennessyians view the secretariat states of the Gulf as perverted heathens, the "kingdoms" of the Great Lakes as rebels, and the Empire of Minnesota as an overblown chiefdom.
The primary soldier of Tennessy is the lancer, a landed horseman, and the minuteman, a professional crossbowman. Important settlements in Tennessy proper include Memphis, Nashville, Little Rock, Paduka, Girardoh, and Metropol.
Obviously, this sets up Tennessee as the "France" of America, with vassals whose loyalty changes with the tide (including one whose rulers are descended from a barbarian tribe [Iowa/Normandy]). I went with Tennessee as it was the only state other than Iowa, the US, Utah, and California with its own link, suggesting it was meant to be the big dog of the Cumberland. I used American terms rather than European ones, to keep with the theam of the TL (Governor instead of King, Colonel instead of Duke).
Totemic Symbol: Donkey
Government: Feudal Monarchy
Religion: Non-Denom
Capital: Memphis
Ruler: Governor Andrew III
Tennessy is, aside from the US itself, the big survivor of the New Middle Ages. Ruled by a hereditary governor who lives in the Great Pyramid of Memphis, Tennessy stretches from the town of Little Rock in the west to the town of Nashville in the east, and from Metropol in the north to Natchez in the south. Tennessy is the largest and most prosperous of the feadul American states, and the Governor can command the allegiance of the Colonels of Mississip, Alabam, Franklin, Kentuck, Missouri, and Iowa (how well depends on the specific governor). Tennessy's relations with the US is frost at best, but the Appalachians are between them so it doesn't matter much. Tennessyians view the secretariat states of the Gulf as perverted heathens, the "kingdoms" of the Great Lakes as rebels, and the Empire of Minnesota as an overblown chiefdom.
The primary soldier of Tennessy is the lancer, a landed horseman, and the minuteman, a professional crossbowman. Important settlements in Tennessy proper include Memphis, Nashville, Little Rock, Paduka, Girardoh, and Metropol.
Obviously, this sets up Tennessee as the "France" of America, with vassals whose loyalty changes with the tide (including one whose rulers are descended from a barbarian tribe [Iowa/Normandy]). I went with Tennessee as it was the only state other than Iowa, the US, Utah, and California with its own link, suggesting it was meant to be the big dog of the Cumberland. I used American terms rather than European ones, to keep with the theam of the TL (Governor instead of King, Colonel instead of Duke).
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I like it.
I'm not sure about the extent of power Tennesy has gained, Iowa I can picture as an ally though, but it does seem to be a major power in the area in White's maps. I can see them and whatever state is based in Ohio being the major players in the East, seeing as the New US is apparently a bunch of free cities and such on the Atlantic Coast that have united and can't really compete plus the Great Lakes kingdoms and the New England Republics enjoy squabbling with each other. Looks like we've got our top-tier powers.
We seem to be matching a lot of these regions with old Medieval Europe nations, it seems(New England-Italy, Tennessy-France, Great Lakes-Hanseatic League, etc.). Strange.
I like it.
I'm not sure about the extent of power Tennesy has gained, Iowa I can picture as an ally though, but it does seem to be a major power in the area in White's maps. I can see them and whatever state is based in Ohio being the major players in the East, seeing as the New US is apparently a bunch of free cities and such on the Atlantic Coast that have united and can't really compete plus the Great Lakes kingdoms and the New England Republics enjoy squabbling with each other. Looks like we've got our top-tier powers.
We seem to be matching a lot of these regions with old Medieval Europe nations, it seems(New England-Italy, Tennessy-France, Great Lakes-Hanseatic League, etc.). Strange.
Well, picture it like the early days of Capetian France. On paper it looks impressive, but behind the scenes the king rules only the land around the capital while powerful feudal lords make all the important decisions.
Some minor corrections: Little Rock and Nathcez are further from Memphis than I thought, so Little Rock is now the capital of Arkansas (Tennessy's western border is now Jonesboro), and Natchez is now part of the State of Alabama (Tennessy's southern border is at Shiloh). Mississip and Alabama are now merged into the fief ("Colonelry?") of Cumberland, to differintiate them from the independent Alabama that seems to rule the gulf coast. Kentuck is also removed, the western half being split between Tennessy proper and a new fief, Jacksonia, based in Nashville. Eastern Kentucky is part of Ohio, which I believe is Tennessy's main rival.
Hendryk
Banned
Any idea about how Quebec looks like? There are hints that, unlike Anglophone Canada which has pretty much fused with the former US culturally speaking, Quebec has remained a distinct society. Apart from the language itself, what would the differences be? (talking about languages, one supposes that the tongues spoken in this neo-medieval world will be as unrecognizable to us as Middle English is to a contemporary English speaker).
No.
Keep your rants for Political Chat where they belong.
Tom Kalbfus
Banned
It isn't real world politics!
Its hard to talk about history without talking about some politics.
You don't agree that this is the way to lower technology levels to medeval levels, you think atom bombs will do the trick? Bombs blow up the cities and everyone says, "Duh, I think I'll stop teaching my children."
I have news for you. Remember the TV series Logan's Run?
What exactly was the community called Dome City? Why did they kill everyone when they reached 30 years old? Would they be considered a totalitatian society? Would you call their notions of population control radical? Would you call what was going on in the show real world politics? I wouldn't, that's what I'm talking about if you would just listen and stop inserting your political objections into the discussion as a way of controlling it.
I think the World of Logan's Run is in a way very similar to Medeaval America, basically you have a high tech bubble in a very primitive world.
I can't speak with too much certainty, but I think that Quebec will be at least somewhat expansionistic. Most of the old province's territory is to the North, which is simply not the best land around, so it makes sense they would try to move towards the Anglo lands to the south. I suppose they could take on a "crusade mentality" against the nondenominational church to rationalize it as well. The map shows that there is a decent mixing of Catholocism towards Ontario and New England, so I would expect those are the areas that they're most focused on. Again, not entirely sure, but that's how I picture it.
As for languages, yes, I think they would be pretty different from modern day. The literacy rate might affect this in some way, as well, but I don't want to touch that can of worms as it would drag us back towards trying to make an explanation for the regression, which leads to politics and ruins the fun. I do think that the regional accents would have an even larger difference from region to region, so much so that the furthest areas might consider each other to have different languages(particularly West Coast to East Coast if there's any direct contact still). However, I'm no linguist, so I don't know exactly how the regional speech would evolve.
Look, I told you before, we are not looking for a reason for this regression. It's not needed, and frankly not wanted due to the politics it brings. Please don't waste space on the thread with explanations, as they will be ignored.
Steel Nation
The Steel Nation (aka Steel Kingdom; Steeler Country)
Totemic Symbol: Stag
Government: Feudal Monarchy
Religion: Non-Denominational Church
Capital: Pittsburgh
Ruler: Governor Carnagy IV
The Steel Nation was formed as a defensive alliance of Pittsburgh, Erie, and Buffalo to protect one another from barbarians, Ohioans, and Canadians. Although theoretically equals, Pittsburgh dominates the alliance as the largest and wealthiest region. People of the Steel Nation (or "Steelers") are famous for their industriousness, their nationalism, and for making the finest wines east of the Mississippi. Their location means they also control the best overland trade routes between the US and the Great Lakes kingdoms.
Steeler influence extends from the towns of Morgantown and Wheeling in the south, Youngstown in the west, Altoona in the east, and Niagara to the north. They share a border with Ohio and are currently at peace with their larger neighbor. Morgantown is a major center of trade with the Appallachian Clans to the south. East between Altoona and Lancaster are wild lands claimed by smaller clans and isolated fiefdoms. They, along with the endless rough terrain, form a bulwark between the Steelers and the Joisey kingdom. To the north, tensions still run high, with New York, Canada, and even Quebec posing threats.
Trade is very important to the kingdom. The Steelers control access to the Ohio river system and the Great Lakes. In addition to their own exports of steel, glass, ceramics, whiskey and wine, Steeler traders venture far and wide. In a foreign port, one can usually find a trade representative of the Steel Nation by looking for a house with a polished steel rod above the door. These "Steeler Bars" are somewhere between an embassey, an emporium, and a pub. They are found even in the Secretarial States (the one in N'awleans is famous) and the Pacific Northwest.
The Steeler military is strongly defensive in nature, and is known popularly as the Steel Curtain. The main forces are armored knights, archers, and marines to patrol the rivers.
One unusual local custom is for different classes to distinguish themselves by the color of their neck cloths. Peasants wear blue; yeomen, priests, and tradesmen wear white; soldiers wear black; and nobles wear black with gold.
The Steel Nation (aka Steel Kingdom; Steeler Country)
Totemic Symbol: Stag
Government: Feudal Monarchy
Religion: Non-Denominational Church
Capital: Pittsburgh
Ruler: Governor Carnagy IV
The Steel Nation was formed as a defensive alliance of Pittsburgh, Erie, and Buffalo to protect one another from barbarians, Ohioans, and Canadians. Although theoretically equals, Pittsburgh dominates the alliance as the largest and wealthiest region. People of the Steel Nation (or "Steelers") are famous for their industriousness, their nationalism, and for making the finest wines east of the Mississippi. Their location means they also control the best overland trade routes between the US and the Great Lakes kingdoms.
Steeler influence extends from the towns of Morgantown and Wheeling in the south, Youngstown in the west, Altoona in the east, and Niagara to the north. They share a border with Ohio and are currently at peace with their larger neighbor. Morgantown is a major center of trade with the Appallachian Clans to the south. East between Altoona and Lancaster are wild lands claimed by smaller clans and isolated fiefdoms. They, along with the endless rough terrain, form a bulwark between the Steelers and the Joisey kingdom. To the north, tensions still run high, with New York, Canada, and even Quebec posing threats.
Trade is very important to the kingdom. The Steelers control access to the Ohio river system and the Great Lakes. In addition to their own exports of steel, glass, ceramics, whiskey and wine, Steeler traders venture far and wide. In a foreign port, one can usually find a trade representative of the Steel Nation by looking for a house with a polished steel rod above the door. These "Steeler Bars" are somewhere between an embassey, an emporium, and a pub. They are found even in the Secretarial States (the one in N'awleans is famous) and the Pacific Northwest.
The Steeler military is strongly defensive in nature, and is known popularly as the Steel Curtain. The main forces are armored knights, archers, and marines to patrol the rivers.
One unusual local custom is for different classes to distinguish themselves by the color of their neck cloths. Peasants wear blue; yeomen, priests, and tradesmen wear white; soldiers wear black; and nobles wear black with gold.
Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Any Catholics would be cut off from the Pope, since he would live on the otherside of the ocean and medeaval people don't cross the Atlantic ocean as they fear they may fall off the "edge of the world", they literally don't know what's on the otherside of the Atlantic or the Pacific as their "coastal hugger" ships won't go there.
People knew the world was round during the Middle Ages. The fact was known since the time fo the ancient Greeks. Also, the Vikings made it to North America by arond the tenth century IIRC. So it is possible, just really hard and not undertaken without a damned good reason. Communication with Rome, and highly profitable trade are good enough reasons. Still, the travel time would be months and communication would be very seldom and not at all regular.