Me-210 works in 1941, effects?

[Deleted member 1487]

I couldn't find any thread on this subject, so I thought I'd give it a try and see if you all aren't sick of WW2 German technical what ifs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_210

The Me 210 was a straightforward cleanup of the 110, and used many of the same parts. The main differences were a modified nose area that was much shorter and located over the center of gravity, and an all-new wing designed for higher cruise speeds. On paper, the Me 210's performance was impressive. It could reach 620 km/h (390 mph) on two 1,350 PS (1,330 hp, 990 kW) Daimler-Benz DB 601F engines, making it about 80 km/h (50 mph) faster than the Bf 110, and nearly as fast as single-engine fighters of the era.

Performance
Maximum speed: 564 km/h (304 knots, 350 mph) at 5,400 m (17,800 ft)
Range: 1,820 km (983 nmi, 1,130 mi)
Service ceiling: 8,900 m (29,200 ft)
Climb to 6,000 m (19,680 ft): 12.5 min

The idea behind the aircraft was sound, but the reality of it was very flawed:

An order for 1,000 Me 210s was placed before the prototype had flown. In time, this would prove to be a mistake. The first prototype flew with DB 601B engines in September 1939, and was considered unsafe by test pilots. Stability was bad in turns, and it tended to "snake" even while flying level. At first, the designers concentrated on the twin-rudder arrangement that had been taken from the 110, and replaced it with a new and much larger single vertical stabilizer. This had almost no effect, and the plane continued to oscillate. The Me 210 also suffered from terrible stalls. With the nose up or in a turn, the stalls whipped into spins when the automatic leading-edge slats opened. The second prototype, Me 210 V2, was lost this way in September 1940, when the pilot could not get out of the resulting spin and had to abandon the aircraft. The chief test pilot commented that the Me 210 had "all the least desirable attributes an aeroplane could possess." It took 16 prototypes and 94 pre-production examples to try to resolve the many problems. Nevertheless, the RLM was desperate to replace the Bf 110s currently in service, and ordered full production in early 1941. The type exhibited grossly inadequate handling characteristics, and a result, several elements of airframe were redesigned, including lengthening the rear section of the fuselage by 92 cm (36-1/4 inches), designated as lang ("long"). The Me 210C was built with DB 605 engines, as well as incorporating the changes to the airframe. The Hungarian authorities were satisfied with the Me 210C in its current state, and purchased a production license for the type, designated Me 210Ca (a = ausländisch) as well as for its DB 605 engines. Several airframes were also purchased, to be completed in Hungarian factories for practice while the assembly lines were set up. Production started in the Dunai Repülőgépgyár Rt. (Danubian Aircraft Plant) as the Me 210Ca with the DB 605B engine, under an agreement where the Luftwaffe got two of every three produced.

Ultimately its estimated the Me210 failure cost the Luftwaffe some 2,000 aircraft:
http://www.amazon.com/Arming-Luftwa...8&qid=1405368884&sr=8-1&keywords=daniel+uziel

What if the aircraft ended up working out and didn't require the scrapping of massive amounts of semi-finished aircraft, machine tools, and the restarting of Bf110 production? The Me210 first with DB601F, later DB605 (1942), and in 1943 the Me410 with the DB603 engine would have been a massive improvement over the Bf110 at the time, as noted in the first quote. As far as numbers go let's assume there are about 2,000 extra Me210s and Me410s from 1941 when it was supposed to enter production to 1943 when it actually did. The Bf110 is phased out in 1941.

Basically it would have been the German Mosquito in terms of performance, though it would have been lacking as night fighter, as it could not fit the electronics the Bf110 ended up being able to. It would have been a fine intruder, as the Mosquito was, but with the Germans lacking the smaller AI radar of the British until late in the war, meant it couldn't be a truly good night fighter until the cavity magnetron was captured and copied. In the meantime it would have functioned as a light bomber, bomber destroyer, intruder, and fast recon aircraft, with potential to be a torpedo bomber too. By November 1943 when it entered serial production IOTL it was counter by the improved Allied single engine fighters, but by then was more than 2 years late.

Let's say it enters production by mid-1941 (June or July). What impact does it have in its greater numbers and performance over the Bf110? With the Bf110 being effectively out of production and the Me210 not being as effective as a night fighter, does the Ju88C/G get the nod as the primary night fighter ITTL in 1941, rather than 1943?

 

[hasdrubal barca]

I couldn't find any thread on this subject, so I thought I'd give it a try and see if you all aren't sick of WW2 German technical what ifs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_210
?

Never!!!!!

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Never!!!!!

I've been told otherwise after a lot of technical what ifs.

 

[hasdrubal barca]

I've been told otherwise after a lot of technical what ifs.

Ignore them, i'm sure alot of people are interested.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Ignore them, i'm sure alot of people are interested.

Any thoughts on the idea?

As far as the Me210C went it would be earlier than the Mosquito night fighter and fighter bomber by about a year and would match or exceed its performance pretty much until 1944 with the steady engine upgrades. As an intruder it would be ideal, much better than the Ju88C. Perhaps with its performance and lack of suitability as a night fighter Kammhuber and persuade Hitler not to cancel intruder operations in October 1941 and reserve the Ju88Cs for night fighter duty. Then the Ju88 can be used in that role instead of trying to shoehorn in the Do217J or N. The Do215 can still work until enough Ju88C/Gs are available, probably until 1943, plus some older Bf110s.

As a fast recon aircraft it would be fine through 1943 and the extra numbers would make it an excellent addition to the LW in 1942-43 in the Mediterranean as a torpedo and light bomber. Against the Arctic convoys it too would be good. It would beat the Bf110 as a bomber destroyer from 1941-43, but be finished by 1944 as per OTL. In the East it would also be very good for Soviet bomber destroying, as the Soviets themselves determined:
http://www.airpages.ru/eng/lw/me410.shtml

Plus as a fast, light bomber it would have a lot to do there, basically filling the role of the FW190 a year early. Like the FW190 it might end up being wasted revenge bombing Britain in 1942-43, but would be very good at it during that period. If it can get into wider service in the East it would, like it predecessor, have a lot to do as a light bomber/strafer, especially in 1942. In 1943 it would still have a lot of utility there as well both by day and night; it would replace the Ju88C as a train buster during this period too. In fact one of the biggest effects would be to replace Ju88 in many of its heavy fighter/torpedo bomber roles, so freeing up airframes for night fighting, which would be a big boon and would force an earlier switch to a dedicated night fighter variant, instead of the bomber converted C-series. Getting an R-series night fighter in wider circulation would be very helpful, as would an early G-series...that would make the Battle of Berlin against the RAF that much worse, especially if enough Me410s were around for intruder ops.

The Me210 screw up was a serious blow to the Luftwaffe in terms of numbers and quality, especially when coupled with the He177 fiasco and Ju288 screw up. There were huge amounts of labor and material wasted on these programs that never really became operational. Also very silly ideas like the Do-217 night fighter sapped hundreds of bombers from the LW that would have been far more useful as bombers, especially if they replaced Ju88s as bombers, which could instead be used as night fighters. In fact the Ju188 shouldn't have been built IMHO, but rather Do-217s as 'heavy' medium bombers, and Ju88s as night fighters, recon aircraft, and fast medium bombers.

Lots of what ifs in there IMHO had the LW been better at planning, rather than political infighting.

 

[Mumbles]

The idea behind the aircraft was sound, but the reality of it was very flawed:

Maybe in some roles, but the overall Zerstorer concept was shown to be more than a little flawed in the fighter role in the presence of single engine fighters that could almost literally run rings around a Zerstorer. The Bf-110 in that role during the Battle of Britain was a failure - they spent more time protecting themselves than the bombers they were supposed to be escorting.

 

[Just Leo]

In fact the Ju188 shouldn't have been built IMHO,

If not for the Ju-188, the Ju-88G would not have had its improved vertical tail.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

If not for the Ju-188, the Ju-88G would not have had its improved vertical tail.

Fair point, but couldn't the tail have been adapted regardless once the Ju88 airframe was cleaned up with the removal of the ventral gondola? The Ju88R proved that the tail needed redesign, so its not like the Ju188 was absolutely necessary for that as the Ju88B prototype still required the adapted tail.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Maybe in some roles, but the overall Zerstorer concept was shown to be more than a little flawed in the fighter role in the presence of single engine fighters that could almost literally run rings around a Zerstorer. The Bf-110 in that role during the Battle of Britain was a failure - they spent more time protecting themselves than the bombers they were supposed to be escorting.

The Destroyers worked fine until 1944 with the introduction of huge numbers of SE escort fighters. As an long range escort it failed, which is why it was withdrawn from that role IOTL after late 1940. By 1941 it was understood that the BF110/Me210/410 was not up to dogfighting and was thus designed to be higher speed and a light bomber/strafer, rather than a fighter-bomber as such. Its speed was high enough as a fast light bomber to make interception difficult until 1944 when it ran into problems forming up for bomber destruction, because swarms of P51Ds in fighter sweeps caught them as they were rising to altitude or waiting for escorting fighters. When not at a disadvantage of trying to speed through vast swarms of escorts, rather being on the attack itself, it wasn't at nearly the same disadvantage; it could speed away when it wasn't trying to rise to altitude against SE fighters that had a height advantage against it.

 

[Rubicon]

I've been told otherwise after a lot of technical what ifs.

I usually find your threads at least worthy of reading, I might not have the time or knowledge that you seek. But I read them. So I'd definetly want you to keep posting them.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I usually find your threads at least worthy of reading, I might not have the time or knowledge that you seek. But I read them. So I'd definetly want you to keep posting them.

Thanks for the positive feedback. The last reaction came from so many posters that I was put off of it for a while.

 

[Just Leo]

Basically it would have been the German Mosquito in terms of performance, though it would have been lacking as night fighter, as it could not fit the electronics the Bf110 ended up being able to.

Wasn't that a decision, rather than a fact? I seem to recall that it wasn't an impossible modification, but was deemed superfluous due to the OTL situation. The ASV-equipped torpedo-carrying variant might have proved nasty as well.

 

[Rubicon]

Thanks for the positive feedback. The last reaction came from so many posters that I was put off of it for a while.

You shouldn't listen to that sort of critiscism, if those posters get annoyed at your attempts at finding interesting technical PODs, then they should simply not read your threads. It's their choice to read or not to read your threads.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Wasn't that a decision, rather than a fact? I seem to recall that it wasn't an impossible modification, but was deemed superfluous due to the OTL situation. The ASV-equipped torpedo-carrying variant might have proved nasty as well.

Not sure, if you can provide some sourcing about that I'd appreciate it.

Edit:
would the ME210/410 then replace He111s and Ju88s for torpedo operations?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Major potential changes:
From what I've read the following are possible major changes
-the Luftwaffe doesn't end intruder operations due to having a virtually uninterceptable fast bomber, so seriously degrades Bomber Command's ability to build itself up from October 1941 on (much later 1000 bomber raids than May 1942)

-less need for a 'try anything' approach to night fighters, so Ju88s form the backbone of the organization early on, as the Bf110 isn't around for that role and the Me210 is taking over intruder operations that give the night fighters are chance to develop on their own. The Do-217 isn't used as a night fighter then, only as a bomber, so the Ju88 can be used in equal numbers as night fighters instead.

-the Me210/410 could function as a torpedo bomber, which would replace the Ju88 to a degree in that role, freeing up more Ju88s for night fighter operations.

-it would also function as an escort for uboats, which makes Bloody Biscay in 1942-44 less bloody for the Germans, as the Me410 can match the Mosquito

-it would be an excellent fast light bomber for operations against Britain and Russian, which would incrementally increase losses there for both. For the Baedeker Blitz it would be the primary bomber, leaving the FW190 to operate in the East as a fighter bomber. Also the Me210 could operate in the East for Case Blue, which would be better than a number of other aircraft used historically.

-it could be used for ground attack, which would negate the need for the Ju88 train busters or P-series, or even the daylight bomber-destroyer version of the Ju88 due to there being lots of Me210s than even Bf110s by 1942-3. That again frees up a lot of Ju88s for night fighting or bombing

So basically it replaces the Ju88 in a lot of roles, which pretty much frees up a lot of Ju88s for night fighting. If operating as an intruder bomber in conjunction with the hundreds of extra Ju88s for night fighting, then Bomber Command is in serious trouble at night from 1942-44. During the day until 1944 the Me210/410 is going to be dishing out more damage than even the Bf110. On the ground and at sea the Me210/410 will also make the allies suffer more as it is faster and less interceptable than the historical aircraft used, while having greater numbers ITTL due to not having to scrap lots of partially completed units and the machine tools for them (only to have to remake the tools later when the Me410 was adopted IOTL).

It could potential change the course of the war, though of course not the outcome. Bomber Command being stymied in 1942-43 via a combination of intruder operations and many more suitable night fighters available would have some serious knock on effects, especially if things like the Battle of the Ruhr aren't as effective and Operation Gemorrah don't come off. By 1944 the USAAF is going to bludgeon its way through LW defenses and start wrecking the economy, so that won't be able to be over come, but in the meantime less effective RAF bombing in 1942-43 on German cities would have an impact on output, which in turn has an impact on the fighting in the East and other fronts. A less bloody Biscay means Uboats are more effective from 1942 on, as less are being sunk just getting on station or getting home from a patrol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ruhr

In his study of the German war economy, Adam Tooze stated that during the Battle of the Ruhr, Bomber Command severely disrupted German production. Steel production fell by 200,000 tons. The armaments industry was facing a steel shortfall of 400,000 tons. After doubling production in 1942, production of steel increased only by 20 percent in 1943. Hitler and Speer were forced to cut planned increases in production. This disruption resulted in the Zulieferungskrise (sub-components crisis). The increase of aircraft production for the Luftwaffe also came to an abrupt halt. Monthly production failed to increase between July 1943 and March 1944. "Bomber Command had stopped Speer's armaments miracle in its tracks".[23]
At Essen after more than 3,000 sorties and the loss of 138 aircraft, the "Krupps works...and the town...itself contained large areas of devastation"[4] Krupps never restarted locomotive production after the second March raid.[4]

Preventing this would have had significant material impacts on the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II#Battle_of_Hamburg

Operation Gomorrah killed 42,600 people, left 37,000 wounded and caused some one million German civilians to flee the city.[3] The city's labour force was reduced permanently by ten percent.[3] Approximately 3,000 aircraft were deployed, 9,000 tons of bombs were dropped and over 250,000 homes and houses were destroyed. No subsequent city raid shook Germany as did that on Hamburg; documents show that German officials were thoroughly alarmed and there is some indication from later Allied interrogations of Nazi officials that Hitler stated that further raids of similar weight would force Germany out of the war. The industrial losses were severe, Hamburg never recovered to full production, only doing so in essential armaments industries (in which maximum effort was made).[11] Figures given by German sources indicate that 183 large factories were destroyed out of 524 in the city and 4,118 smaller factories out of 9,068 were destroyed. Other losses included damage to or destruction of 580 industrial concerns and armaments works, 299 of which were important enough to be listed by name. Local transport systems were completely disrupted and did not return to normal for some time. Dwellings destroyed amounted to 214,350 out of 414,500.[12] Hamburg was hit by air raids another 69 times before the end of World War II.

This too could have been pushed back or off entirely had Bomber Command be confronted early on by intruders preventing or at least their development as a massive force capable of this type of attack.

 

[hasdrubal barca]

It could potential change the course of the war, though of course not the outcome. Bomber Command being stymied in 1942-43 via a combination of intruder operations and many more suitable night fighters available would have some serious knock on effects, especially if things like the Battle of the Ruhr aren't as effective and Operation Gemorrah don't come off.By 1944 the USAAF is going to bludgeon its way through LW defenses and start wrecking the economy, so that won't be able to be over come, but in the meantime less effective RAF bombing in 1942-43 on German cities would have an impact on output, which in turn has an impact on the fighting in the East and other fronts. A less bloody Biscay means Uboats are more effective from 1942 on, as less are being sunk just getting on station or getting home from a patrol.

So the Me-210 can be a stopgap

If the Germans, with the Me-210, can prevent the British from doing heavy damage in 42-43 then the next goal should be to have an aircraft ready by 44 that can lessen the U.S. bombings. Any ideas? In other threads i remember you mentioning Fw-190 C, D and Ta 152.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

For those that take issue with this characterization of POD butterflies being too much in the Germans' favor feel free to raise specific concerns and I'll address my thought processes on why things play out as they do and what British counter measures there were available.

For instance the Mosquito night fighter was first available until May 1942 and wasn't available in significant numbers until the end of 1942. Its performance wasn't any better than the Me210 in 1942, nor the Me410 in 1943. It had a hard time shooting down the Me410 intruders IOTL until 1944 with steady engine and radar upgrades. The Beaufighter was a decent night fighter against the Ju88, but was lacking against the Me210/410. The Beaufighter was a decent offensive night fighter, but as a defensive one it failed against the faster German intruders like the Me2/410.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

So the Me-210 can be a stopgap

If the Germans, with the Me-210, can prevent the British from doing heavy damage in 42-43 then the next goal should be to have an aircraft ready by 44 that can lessen the U.S. bombings. Any ideas? In other threads i remember you mentioning Fw-190 C, D and Ta 152?

The challenge with that would be to fix the technical issues there. The Germans did not accept that two stage two speed supercharger that would have made the basic German engine plenty fine for attacking B-17s until too late. A standard FW190A with such a supercharger could have been ready in 1943 and been just fine tackling enemy bombers on its own and going toe to toe with the P51D at altitude, especially if they came up with the R4M in time. The FW190C would have been excellent in the role and ready in 1943 with the two stage, two speed solution, had it been accepted in time and Milch not pushed the delayed Jumo 213 (which could have been ready even earlier without the waste of time on the Jumo 222).

The problem with countering the daylight bombing offensive is numbers, as the USAAF had 6,000 four engine bombers in Europe by May 1944, not to mention several thousand long range SE fighter escorts. Even with several hundred FW190Cs fitted with R4Ms, DB603G engines, and all the boost systems one could want, they would not be able to handle the awesome numbers arrayed against them; they could score 3:1 kills and still lose. But by 1944 the best pilots were largely dead at this point, partly due to LW fighter doctrine, but also stupid policies in terms of pushing fighter cover in situations where they would get slaughtered like in the Mediterranean in 1943.

So we would need a second and probably third POD unless we went back even further and changed things; my favorite POD is to avoid Walter Wever's death in 1936 by having Goering die in a place crash months earlier, which leads Hitler to 'ground' Wever so he doesn't suffer the same fate. That is a massive boon to everything in the German war effort, unleashing massive butterflies that change the course of the war, but prevents the Bf110 let alone the Me210 from ever being produced in the first place. Instead we get the FW187, but later than the Bf110.

So in terms of the simple Me210 POD we cannot solve the 1944 crisis even with favorable butterflies, unless somehow preventing the Battle of the Ruhr makes the Ostmark engine facility start operations sooner (perhaps by ensuring the machine tools are disrupted by the bombing of the Ruhr and daylight bombing of it in 1943 is intercepted by Me410s), which gets us many more DB603s. However the issue then is getting the FW190C into service sans 'Kangaroo pouch', but with altitude performance. Then there is the issue of German anti-bomber doctrine being malformed around the Destroyer idea in 1944, so they are still sitting ducks when they are forming up for Big Wing attacks on bomber formations and get slaughtered by marauding P-51s on fighter sweeps ranging ahead of bomber formations. Even FW190Cs aren't going to be able to stop that due to limited numbers and faulty doctrine.

Don't get me wrong, the Me210/410 working has all sorts of major benefits for the Germans, but by 1944 it won't make a major difference against the USAAF other than perhaps making the attrition take a big longer. Once Normandy happens though, it rips a massive hole in German radar defenses, which means RAF night bombing can sneak in much more easily, while the Allies can base fighters on the continent, which as a massive game changer in terms of using their huge numbers of fighters to maraud through German skies. So even blunting the fighter offensive of 1944 still won't change the fundamental issue of Overlord change the game entirely by August 1944. Plus the oil campaign really will cut the LW off at the knees, which was really a prime factor in the death of the LW by mid-1944.

 

[Just Leo]

Not sure, if you can provide some sourcing about that I'd appreciate it.

Edit:
would the ME210/410 then replace He111s and Ju88s for torpedo operations?

The thing about "seem to recall" is that I come across thousands of bits of useless information resourcing my doodling habit, and, apart from pictorial and graphic evidence, these sources remain undocumented. With modification to the timeline, replacing or supplanting other aircraft remains an option. Armed with torpedo or big-ass gun, I could picture this aircraft cruising the fiords, with longer legs than Ju-87.

Some day, you should address the unrequited operational history of the Arado Ar-240. Always a bridesmaid, never a bride. A dive bomber with a pressure cabin.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Some day, you should address the unrequited operational history of the Arado Ar-240. Always a bridesmaid, never a bride. A dive bomber with a pressure cabin.

AFAIK the 240 was never able to overcome it stability issues.
Otherwise it would have been a better version of the Me410. I suppose if it could work out its issues with the BF110 getting cancelled in favor of the FW187, there would be room for a light bomber to take over missions that the Ju88 was too heavy for. It would also then be a decent night fighter platform and a much more useful light bomber.

http://www.wehrmacht-history.com/luftwaffe/prototypes/arado-ar-440-prototype.htm
The Ar-440 though would have a much more useful role. In combination with the FW187 for long range escort fighting and some fighter bombing, the Ar-440, developed for the 1942 replacement of the IOTL failed Me210, could have been excellent in a TL without the Bf110/Me210 being produced. Of course it would require the DB603G to be produced and enough C3 fuel output, which is what IOTL killed the 603G (which would have been an excellent engine for a number of fighters).

An Ar-240/440 would be great if in production and service by 1942 and of course was a stable aircraft. Messerschmitt really screwed up IOTL as did the RLM for preventing better aircraft from coming online...among many other reasons.