Maybe Hitler saved humanity?

Inadvertently, of course. This idea came out of my wondering if Robin Williams death might lead to a more in depth conversation about mental illness which goes on to save many lives. A silver lining.


And i began to wonder if perhaps everything has a silver lining, one that just may be impossible to see. And here is my thinking: Hitler caused a shift in mankinds collective psyche. I've read that before him, the lowest you could insult someone was by comparing them to the Pharoh. We obviously hadn't had "the living embodiment of evil" in living memory. So lets say that the conditions that lead him to power are butterflied away enough that nothing like the Holocaust happens. In fact, there is a relative peace after WWI (the time humanity considers its darkest chapter). What happens if humanity develops the atom bomb in a semi-peaceful world? Yes, there will be tests where people say "this is horrific and never to be used." but not everyone is so concerned about others (See: Hitler). It would be a world were not every child can both define and give examples of genocide.

In OTL, the atom bomb was born during a period of terrible bloodshed. It is used twice and we spend the following decades tettering on nuclear war. I think a large part of why the Cold War never went hot is because we collectively still had the memories of the horrors of the world wars. In a world where those horrors didn't happen, i could see an enormous global arms race that was butterflied by OTL's two superpowers. Perhaps the best thing about the cold war is it allowed the superpowers to say either "you may have a limited nuclear aresenal" or "none at all" and cite the threat of extinction.

In this Hitlerless world, what if the atom bomb is discovered and everyone begins building them? They would be unaware of the true implications. And instead of having most of the world clumped into two umbrella alliances, its the everyman-for-themselves ideals of the early twentieth century. (Look at countries that fought one another. At some point they were friends, as visa versa). There is no global power to tell France, England, China, Japan, so on and on, not to build nukes. And in a world were you basically have to have them to have any real sovereignty, everyone would want them. Proliferation like we cannot imagine.

And without the well publicized atrocities of the second world war, perhaps this world isn't so nauseated by some kind of "tit for tat" nuclear war. A conflict that slowly escalates over time, knocking mankind farther and farther back. With everyone having nukes, the safeguards are much less. Nuclear terrorism would/could become a facet of everyday life. Without someone to be world cop, all the old animosities find themselves in a situation where being wiped off the face of the earth isn't uncommon, and the only way to prevent it is to do it first.

--
I'm not saying "thank god for all the horrible things that happened." I just have wondered if there are perhaps far darker things we avoided. We seem, perhaps unconsciously, to agree on that. All of the timelines where Japan doesn't surrender, the Reich last 40 years, so on and on. Thoughts?
 

Devvy

Donor
While I can see the point you are attempting to make, I think a lot of people would class the roundup and massacre of millions of people from different ethnic groups from yourself, as well as opponents & people you don't like from your own group & country about as bad as it can get anyway. I think we'd struggle to get something much worse in the 20th century.

But hey, I'm an optimist :)
 
It's tempting to think such thoughts, to consider ourselves lucky things weren't somehow worse and so on. Ultimately, though, I think this logic is flawed. It reminds me too much of Candide.

It's entirely possible that a particularly nasty mass crime was necessary to raise awareness about such issues. Looking further, however, it's also true that oftentimes there is no international action in response to these crimes.

And the thing about atom bombs is, they were extensively tested prior to use, against mockups of towns and so on. Their effects were well-known by the physicists and planners, though not necessarily the bombers who flew them. I remember the pilot of one of the bombers (not sure which) was told he had to make exact maneuvers after dropping the bomb, because of how powerful it was. His reaction was, well, how powerful could it be? But he did the maneuvers all the same. It would be moronic and irresponsible for any military to use a weapon on someone if they didn't know beforehand what it did.

The only effect that wasn't properly understood until much later was radiation, and in real-life those effects are miniscule compared to the explosion itself.

So the only thing I can really say to your supposition is, ehh, maybe, maybe not.
 
I've considered the fact that were it not for WW2, the European empires would have lasted much longer, with all the horrors that brings on the colonized peoples.

But I'm very hesitant to call one situation or the other "better".
 

nooblet

Banned
That would presuppose that Hitler was something truly revolutionary, instead of a creature that was the inevitable outcome of the doctrine of eugenism.
I suppose eugenism as an ideology is unavoidable and had to be confronted sooner or later, but even what happened after the second world war did little to convince people about the error of eugenism as an ideology, or consider how American and British eugenists enabled the rise of a Hitler in the first place.

If anything, pointing to Hitler as an exemplar of human evil is a mechanism people resort to so they don't have to think about how their actions, their belief systems led to the Nazi genocides.

Another trope that gets played a lot is that after world war 2, white people were so magnanimous that they decided to give black people equal rights. The obvious racism implied in this belief is somehow lost, and it doesn't occur as frequently as it used to, but it's another example of how an issue is transformed into a self-congratulatory paean for the status quo. Institutional racism could not persist forever, it was a stupid policy and everyone at the time could see that - it wasn't as if Hitler's evil suddenly made that clear and that beforehand we were just too ignorant and innocent. :rolleyes:
 
The basic premise here is that a war that starts with nuclear weapons might be more destructive than the one that ended with them. That might be true if nukes remain secret to world leaders until sixties-level technology, as those who might trigger a war might not have complete understanding as to how bad it could get.

More likely, nukes would be introduced to the world for construction, and the resulting radiation poisoning would trigger an environmental outcry.
 
No. Hitler was Northern European supremacy brought to it's terrifyingly total conclusion. The system eventually ate its own. As systems are wont to do.
 

U.S David

Banned
Its a simple truth that should be the motto for Alternate History.com

Change a simple thing, and we don't know what changes. The world can get better, worse, or stay the same.

Hitler never being born could do anything. We just don't know.
 
shocked

I freely admit that I feel that I have read enough history that it is a bit hard to shock me. That being said, this did. Let me tell you why.

To phrase it as you did in the Premise, is to say either Hitler did good, it was good that Hitler existed as he did, as recorded by history.

Does that not begin a whitewashing of Hitler's reputation?


And even if I was to be inspired by my recent reading of Dune series to view history in a long view (thousands of years), and even if his deeds could be pinned as the source of a fundamental change of humanity's mindset that people would call good, do we really want to give him credit???


Let me finish with an off the top of my head comparison. (I make no delusional claims that I match the average intelligence here). The bubonic plague. It is commonly recognized to have killed off upwards of half the population of Europe, not to mention quite a few in Asia and possibly Africa. We set back planetary overpopulation by centuries right? What about resource allocation? Was that reset on some scale? I'm sure if we ignore minor things like death and suffering, this was a great idea and we humans should try population decimations by plague more often... yes?


NO! Twenty Thousand times NO!!!!!


If some good might have lucked out, I say credit us humans for learning, for evolving to that point.


Thanks for reading,

Jack
 
Such considerations probably precluded Hitler from being TIME's Person of the Century, even when his influence, toxic as it was, and its effects practically defined the latter half of the 20th century as we know it.
 
Such considerations probably precluded Hitler from being TIME's Person of the Century, even when his influence, toxic as it was, and its effects practically defined the latter half of the 20th century as we know it.
He was only doing what the americans and the british had done before him. Just in industrial scale, timeframe and most importantly, to other white people.

It wasn't even Hitler's army that killed most people in the 20th century.

And to anyone claiming Im trolling or glorifying Hitler; There is a difference between thinking that Nazis were great or thinking that everyone else when it gets down to essentials sucked just as bad.
 
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I suppose it's possible that Hitler may have saved humanity. But it's also possible that someone forgetting to put their pants on saved humanity. It's extremely unlikely, but him going back into his house to change, delaying for 5 minutes, means that he will run over some kid who would have started a nuclear war when he grew up. But we will never know. Hitler may have saved humanity. He may have doomed it, but getting rid of him would mean a cloud of butterflies that blocks out the sun, and in that darkness we could not see what was a result of Hitler, and what was a result of Bob.
 

nooblet

Banned
Let me finish with an off the top of my head comparison. (I make no delusional claims that I match the average intelligence here). The bubonic plague. It is commonly recognized to have killed off upwards of half the population of Europe, not to mention quite a few in Asia and possibly Africa. We set back planetary overpopulation by centuries right? What about resource allocation? Was that reset on some scale? I'm sure if we ignore minor things like death and suffering, this was a great idea and we humans should try population decimations by plague more often... yes?


NO! Twenty Thousand times NO!!!!!


If some good might have lucked out, I say credit us humans for learning, for evolving to that point.


Thanks for reading,

Jack

The plague didn't prevent world overpopulation because population levels would have risen to what they would have been w/o plague; what checks population growth historically is the availability of food, and less the ability to produce new babies as a hard limit (I don't have figures for the average number of children a woman gave birth to in the 1500s or 1600s, but given high rates of infant mortality at the time it's bound to be fairly high...). The Black Death did alter the course of European civilization and changed the value of the peasant in the short term, though...

In a lot of ways, our world is actually UNDERpopulated compared to the means of food production available as of today. Whether it is desirable to have 20 billion humans around is an entirely different question, and depends on which of those 20 billion humans you ask.

Anyway, getting back to the main topic... tragedies happen and people learn from them, or don't. It is not as if the world before Hitler was innocent and suddenly experienced a revelation - one of the reasons people were afraid to confront Hitler was specifically because they remembered the first World War, and weren't in the mood for another horrible catastrophe like that.

There is a lot of sentiment, which has been a thing lately, that the world would have been much better off if the Germans won the Battle of the Marne, and the first world war ended quickly with a German victory - and had it gone differently, the world would have turned out MUCH differently, and it is not likely there would be a Soviet Union, Communism in the form it took, and of course a lot of lives saved. I'm not optimistic it would have turned out well though.

I would hope that people saw the way the world was heading before the 20th century began, but then I hope that people my age could see where the 21st century was heading and so far I've been left with utter despair.
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
As the result of the Nazi Holocaust before (the plans) and during World War II, the charge of genocide at least gets people's attention. We can still ask whether people have the repertoire of skills to respond early and effectively. For example, how good a job did the international community do for:

1) Guatemala all during the 1980s, when under the guise of fighting communists, the regime attacked indigenous peoples.

2) Rwanda in '93 or '94, and

3) Darfur, maybe 2005 or even earlier.
 
I don't see that the world in general changed for the better as a result of WW2.

True, the end of colonialism was expedited, I think, with attendant increase in self-determination. But the end of colonialism didn't see the creation of Utopias, just a localization of warfare. Previously warfare had at least been "regulated" by the political needs of the colonial powers: Britain's colonies could only be involved in a large scale war if Britain wanted a war, for instance, which Britain usually did not. Instead, we've seen a proliferation of localized wars, which might kill fewer people individually, but have become more nearly endemic.

As much as I have come to despise colonialism, I also have to admit that the establishment of self-determination in many regions (most?) did not improve human rights, but rather often allowed people the freedom to resume long-standing grudges and greed through oppression of other ethnic groups, massacres, establishment of klepocratic oligarchies, etc. The British Empire had its Amritsars, true enough; but by and large the colonial powers wanted their colonies to be peaceful (makes for more efficient exploitation) and so they often worked to suppress local, traditional, tribalized competitions. The colonial cure might've been as bad as the previous (and subsequent) disease, but I think no worse. For the record, I still don't consider colonialism ethically defensible, even on this basis, though.

I'm just not at all sure that regimes such as Idi Amin's were any better for the human beings involved than the colonial rule that came before.

The one instance of improvement one might point to was in Europe, which happened because Europe had basically fought itself into exhaustion by this point. But even European postwar history has had ugly points, and had Hitler not arisen, Europe just possibly would've settled into a pattern of (generally) peaceful cooperation anyway; WW1 had been pretty traumatic, after all.

Finally, and this is basically a quibble with your thread title, but a bad man can't be given credit for an unintended result of his evil actions. Thus, Hitler didn't save humanity, since that wasn't what he was intending to do; quite the opposite in fact, as he wanted to exterminate rather large portions of it, instead. Saying "Maybe Hitler saved humanity" implies that he deserves some credit, which he does not.

On nukes: there wouldn't have been widespread proliferation, regardless. Only a very wealthy nation could've created the first atomic bomb. Once it did so, one or two other wealthy nations would've emulated the feat. Then they would've banded together to prevent all others (who mostly didn't have the resources to do so easily, anyway) from joining the Club. I think more than likely the few national nuclear inventories would've been been smaller and better protected than has been the case OTL, where it is somewhat plausible that portions of the old USSR's vast arsenal might fall into seriously irresponsible hands.

Just my thoughts, the logic might certainly be off.
 
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Red Horse

IMO, Hitler didn't save humanity. But he (indirectly) taught them a very important lesson.
 
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