Maya/Mesoamerican Colonization of the Caribbean

The Sandman

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So, next question: how much time would it buy if Colombus' first expedition is annihilated?

As for reaching West Africa, I was wondering if any sort of long-distance trade might occur, akin to Greco-Roman trade in the Indian Ocean and with China.
 

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As for reaching West Africa, I was wondering if any sort of long-distance trade might occur, akin to Greco-Roman trade in the Indian Ocean and with China.
If it did it would be very much the Natives initiating and maintain it. West Africa had very little of a blue water naval tradition, and its coasts were much less developed than the hinterlands (particularly around the Sahel)
 
Would there by any pushing north up the coast of what is today the US? Whether it is out of sheer curiosity or chasing the cod fish stocks or any other reason?
 
I may be pushing this too far, but if the Mayan mariners start pushing up the coast of North America for whatever reason early enough, could they potentially run into the Vikings?

Like I said, that may be taking things too far but it could also depend on just how far south the Vikings decide to push.
 
I may be pushing this too far, but if the Mayan mariners start pushing up the coast of North America for whatever reason early enough, could they potentially run into the Vikings?

Like I said, that may be taking things too far but it could also depend on just how far south the Vikings decide to push.
Okay. So vikings reached Newfoundland, let's go with... 1100? The Maya, at that point, are probably colonizing their first Gulf Coast outpost, so the furthest explorers are... Carolinas?
 
I may be pushing this too far, but if the Mayan mariners start pushing up the coast of North America for whatever reason early enough, could they potentially run into the Vikings?

Like I said, that may be taking things too far but it could also depend on just how far south the Vikings decide to push.

I think it would be improbable that the Maya would go out of their way, even if they have a expanded trade network and range, to encounter the Norse. Unless the butterflies from the Maya colonizing the Caribbean would incentivize the Norsemen to either stay in Vinland or try a second attempt at colonization (maybe the Greenlanders decide to head to North America when their home gets colder) in more hospitable and warmer territory - subsequently coming across either Maya traders or finding Maya-manufactured goods in the hands of the Northeastern native tribes.

Might get introduction of ponies, pigs and cattle to North America?
 
One really cool thing that I don't think has been brought up is if Mayan colonization begins early enough, it might make the slash and burn agriculture that killed off the Maya obsolete, since it would mean that there were simply better ways and places to get food than burning the entire jungle. Then, the Mayan either begin to expand into the Caribbean and even the Mexico Valley, or they eventually fall apart but not before technology gets off the ground. When the Europeans arrive, they will find the Caribbean maybe into the 8th century technologically rather than barely at Rome like OTL, especially if once they reach the Pacific someone gets the bright idea to go sail down that way too, and run into some folks offering Llamas and Guinea Pigs. Hell, you could even have some big cities and even an Old World style disease develop in the Americas.
 
Okay. So vikings reached Newfoundland, let's go with... 1100? The Maya, at that point, are probably colonizing their first Gulf Coast outpost, so the furthest explorers are... Carolinas?

First recorded sighting was 987 and the attempted colony by Lief Ericson was around 1000. While that only lasted a few years they supposedly returned on a semi-regular basis for raw materials for the next 300 years. Some of this is also contingent on how far south you believe they went (claims they went as far as Rhode Island for example).

I agree, it is probably a bridge too far. The only way this could happen is if one side hears stories through a third party that are interesting enough that they decide to keep pushing either north or south. I could see a situation where Viking and/or Mayan goods wind up in the hands of the others through normal exchanges with tribes in between and when those artifacts are found hundreds of years later it leads to all manner of speculation and several years worth of shows on the History Channel.
 
First recorded sighting was 987 and the attempted colony by Lief Ericson was around 1000. While that only lasted a few years they supposedly returned on a semi-regular basis for raw materials for the next 300 years. Some of this is also contingent on how far south you believe they went (claims they went as far as Rhode Island for example).

I agree, it is probably a bridge too far. The only way this could happen is if one side hears stories through a third party that are interesting enough that they decide to keep pushing either north or south. I could see a situation where Viking and/or Mayan goods wind up in the hands of the others through normal exchanges with tribes in between and when those artifacts are found hundreds of years later it leads to all manner of speculation and several years worth of shows on the History Channel.

Not as improbable as you might think. In OTL, there has been evidence of very exotic artifacts ending up in Norse grave sites like a sixth century Indian Buddha statue found in an island off the coast of Sweden. It wouldn't be crazy to have a statue of Kukulkan (or any Maya object) ending up in Norse hands.
 
One really cool thing that I don't think has been brought up is if Mayan colonization begins early enough, it might make the slash and burn agriculture that killed off the Maya obsolete, since it would mean that there were simply better ways and places to get food than burning the entire jungle. Then, the Mayan either begin to expand into the Caribbean and even the Mexico Valley, or they eventually fall apart but not before technology gets off the ground. When the Europeans arrive, they will find the Caribbean maybe into the 8th century technologically rather than barely at Rome like OTL, especially if once they reach the Pacific someone gets the bright idea to go sail down that way too, and run into some folks offering Llamas and Guinea Pigs. Hell, you could even have some big cities and even an Old World style disease develop in the Americas.

That is part of the issue, the American cultures and states were not at Roman levels of development at least militarily. They were at most around Hittite levels, huge difference.
 
Well, the reason behind the Spanish success was because of the disunity they were able to take advantage of, and even then it took tremendous amount of luck.

Here, I don't such happening at all. This is a vibrant trade focused community that would not shun anything as they are right in their first exploratory and colonization phase.They would be the most receptive of European goods and ideal.
 
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Would there by any pushing north up the coast of what is today the US? Whether it is out of sheer curiosity or chasing the cod fish stocks or any other reason?
The same curiosity that lead to expeditions along the Pacific could lead voyagers up the east coast. This will be peripheral to the Mississippi however, as most of the more lucrative goods would travel down river from as far as the Great Lakes (and a much greater volume as well). Imported Mesoamerican goods would also find an easier way into the interior via the Mississippi as opposed to the eastern seaboard. The northern limit of influence from the Caribbean would likely match that of the South Appalachian Mississippian culture.

However, when Florida urbanizes further, the peninsula would make excellent middlemen. The Gulf stream will take them very far and New England, for instance, would benefit from not having to deal with crossing the Appalachians for Gulf Coast goods.
As for reaching West Africa, I was wondering if any sort of long-distance trade might occur, akin to Greco-Roman trade in the Indian Ocean and with China.
If it did it would be very much the Natives initiating and maintain it. West Africa had very little of a blue water naval tradition, and its coasts were much less developed than the hinterlands (particularly around the Sahel)
Funny you mention Greco-Roman trade, because I imagine much of Circum-Caribbean would look like the "Periplus of the Erythraean Sea" if allowed to mature. A Maya periplus would be very fascinating.

I've given West Africa some thought. If no one's willing to sail from the Mediterranean to Senegal, some African specific changes could be very pronounced. I'm probably stretching things quite a bit. We are talking about very early divergences here but I'm always willing to speculate.

Bear in mind, this is a very long term projection (probably not having a solid place in this thread). Think of this as a template and launch point for other ideas rather than the inherent outcome of the POD.

For this scenario, assume that European colonialism as it occurred in the sixteenth century is suspended indefinitely. Also assume that the Maritime Age is already fully developed. Its gonna be another wall of text and I'm really, really pushing the envelope here:

With more frequent landings of wayward *Americans* on the coast of Africa an exchange of crops occurs, similar to the sweet potato's impact in the Pacific. The coastal west African societies experience a population boom and myths of boat people disseminate along the shore. Shipping technology has slowly improved (but no catamarans, alot of knowledge has been lost along the shipwrecks). Eventually, someone decides to make a return trip (perhaps similarly to Abu Bakr II's proposed voyage, or a South American whose managed to return home). The knowledge of another great land to the east, a more populous and ocean oriented coast, and the familiar foods found there encourages more to make the voyage across the Atlantic.

On the Mid Atlantic islands *American sailors dominate but on the mainland disease takes a toll. Eventually a hybrid culture forms between the islands and Western Africa. This group is what encourages trade between the two continents. They use iron and have herded cattle, and cultivate foods like African rice. Through such middle men African domesticated flora and fauna make the trip. This revolutionizes non-Amazonian Brazil, with a herding economy developing and spreading from the coast.

Tropical diseases like malaria and yellow fever spread to the Americas when trade becomes more direct (more sanitary sailing conditions on the boats helps alot i.e. tons better than a slave ship). The effects of the diseases are harmful and with a well developed trade network they spread quickly. The "Maritime Age" ends in a vaguely similar way to the Bronze Age Collapse (though in all honesty the two periods aren't that comparable, this is more a visual aid). The following period is characterized by lower but still important trade and volumes of goods as the indigenous people adapt to the changes of of their carefully managed environment. The Trans-Atlantic trade would've otherwise faded (and in most worlds would have), but the hybrid culture has managed to sustain it with their vulnerability much less than the others. This group is too small to replace the indigenous Americans and they're assimilated fully into the societies there in a manner akin to the Oorlam of Southern Africa. (They could also become something like Pochteca-Dyula traders, that would be quite the sight)

In spite of these changes, the Americas would, over many years, recover. Note that the Congo maintained a population in the millions before Leopold. ITTL the Americas still suffer from diseases but they won't suffer from mass enslavement or total displacement and forced migration. The initial population was much higher and the spread of technologies and livestock from Africa has mitigated the population decline.

The Caribbean rim, Gulf Coast, Mesoamerica, and the Andes, faced with new diseases and the introduction of new flora and fauna, change considerably. Many of the old kingdoms, chiefdoms, cities, and empires have either disappeared or were reincarnated into new societies. Diseases become endemic in the aforementioned regions but a new era dawns. Succeeding the Intermediate Era, this new period has the plants animals and technologies radiating outward. The time it takes for this to occur is similar to the Bantu Migration in Africa. It may actually occur faster as the Americas have centuries of well established connections (plus they were introduced at nearly the same time for both continents, which by themselves are smaller than Africa).

Fast forward several centuries and the Trans Atlantic diffusion is complete. The Americas have developed new cultivation and husbandry techniques. The population is higher than ever, and transportation over land is developing in a way unimaginable to the first Maya voyagers. In fact the Maya heartland and much of the Americas are developing new technologies on par with the east. Even if, after all this time, an ATL European conquistador travels to the Caribbean he'll find himself suffering from the same tropical diseases encountered in Africa and demographically displacing the indigenous population is essentially impossible. The Great Exchange, in contrast to the Columbian Exchange is much slower, initiated from the Americas, and the indigenous inhabitants have used their leverage to their advantage.

[On the Norse and the like, note that it was European contact as it occurred in the sixteenth century that was suspended. Something like Vinland, or a deeply diverged Europe (Non Indo-European for example) isn't mutually exclusive with the scenario]
 
Personally, I hope for butterflies preventing European colonization until 1550, but with minor smallpox-y contact with Vin landers iN 1100. That way, they have time to recover.
 
I had an idea a few months back, of a more successful Hansa expanding into North America. POD was the negotiations after they won the war with Denmark. Now I have this image of Hansa going down the coast of North America meeting them coming up.
 
If the Maritime Age (or whatever it would be called in their respective languages) ends, I'd see the various kingdoms, confederations and tribal states eventually conglomerating to form larger island-wide kingdoms and empires by the time the Europeans (besides any Vinlanders) come into contact with the alt-Amerindians. The smaller polities would either be abandoned or be susceptible to invasion and conquest by the larger Maya/Taino/mainlander Amerindian kingdoms. The center of trade and power might move from the likes of Cuba and Hispaniola to somewhere like Florida or even any colonies in the Mississippi.

Contact with either Vinland and sub-Saharan west Africa means that iron weapons would be introduced, replacing the bronze and stone weapons they had.
 
I had an idea a few months back, of a more successful Hansa expanding into North America. POD was the negotiations after they won the war with Denmark. Now I have this image of Hansa going down the coast of North America meeting them coming up.
The Hansa could make an unique impact on the Americas come to think of it. Jumping off of @twovultures' idea of a Goa in the New World, the Hansa may try something similar. The Hasna might rely on propping up native powers (which there will be more of) to make up for their manpower and to prevent their trade from slipping into rival hands. The trade network won't totally disintegrate if such a thing were to happen. I don't know much at all about the Hasna though, so I'll defer to those more knowledgeable.

Another factor that might be worth considering for the Spanish is that having much more trouble and taking much longer to consolidate the Caribbean could lead to privateers entering the picture. If this becomes a regular occurrence, it opens up a whole new can of worms.

If the Maritime Age (or whatever it would be called in their respective languages) ends, I'd see the various kingdoms, confederations and tribal states eventually conglomerating to form larger island-wide kingdoms and empires by the time the Europeans (besides any Vinlanders) come into contact with the alt-Amerindians. The smaller polities would either be abandoned or be susceptible to invasion and conquest by the larger Maya/Taino/mainlander Amerindian kingdoms. The center of trade and power might move from the likes of Cuba and Hispaniola to somewhere like Florida or even any colonies in the Mississippi.

Contact with either Vinland and sub-Saharan west Africa means that iron weapons would be introduced, replacing the bronze and stone weapons they had.
Quite true, and such a development would be very captivating to see unfold. We could, for instance, see Cuba unified (relatively speaking) by a city-kingdom whose political organization looks a bit like an overseas Teotihuacan or Mayapan. Vassal kings, oligarchs, and councils are installed in the coastal cities of Yucatan, Hispaniola, Florida, and Jamaica, with the alliances in these regions heavily affected. The power vacuum created when the hegemony declines, could definitely have places like Florida and Colombia come into their own. The same holds true for the Mississippi delta cities and urban sites up river. If power shifts from the delta to the upriver polities it could have big ramifications for the North American interior.

I also think iron working would be quickly adopted within much of the Caribbean with smelting already being common practice. The dynamic between regions would change considerably with these new tools.
 
Another factor that might be worth considering for the Spanish is that having much more trouble and taking much longer to consolidate the Caribbean could lead to privateers entering the picture. If this becomes a regular occurrence, it opens up a whole new can of worms.

Any privateers in the Caribbean would be able to draw on a number of Native sailors. Sure, they're experienced with different kinds of ships, but their knowledge of navigation and willingness to put out to sea means that English and French privateers could find themselves with largely Native crews-and said crews would be learning all kinds of useful things about European technology, weaponry and culture, which could be useful for their homelands.
 
Any privateers in the Caribbean would be able to draw on a number of Native sailors. Sure, they're experienced with different kinds of ships, but their knowledge of navigation and willingness to put out to sea means that English and French privateers could find themselves with largely Native crews-and said crews would be learning all kinds of useful things about European technology, weaponry and culture, which could be useful for their homelands.

Imagine European-Native privateer groups forming small warlord like states in the various ports of the Caribbean. Place such as Florida or Louisiane would be prime areas. In both places, you can shift in and out of small inlets and bays are a dime a dozen in both areas. Going in and out and catching these privateers would be near impossible, especially when there is large numbers of natives to help them hide. Sort of like imagining the Caribbean and Gulf world with a population similar to otl Mexico.
 
Any privateers in the Caribbean would be able to draw on a number of Native sailors. Sure, they're experienced with different kinds of ships, but their knowledge of navigation and willingness to put out to sea means that English and French privateers could find themselves with largely Native crews-and said crews would be learning all kinds of useful things about European technology, weaponry and culture, which could be useful for their homelands.

The Caribs - if they still have the same antagonistic relationship with the Taino and presumably the Caribbean-based Maya, might be willing to join the English and French privateers if it means having a technological edge against their enemies.

EDIT: Also any chance we may get Barbary Pirates to join in on the privateering action? Have them conquer one of the smaller islands and use it as a base?
 
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