Maya/Mesoamerican Colonization of the Caribbean

[John7755 يوحنا]

Haha great post @Jon the Numbat but 'founded the settlement of Vieux Carré' oh my now that is funny. Mayans name their new glorious city by coincidence the same name the French would use for that spot on Île d'Orléans.

An interesting thing is what name would the city there be, if Bienville had not named it Nouvelle Orléans and the particular area he founded would become the Vieux Carré of modern times as the city grew into over 10 different wards. Originally the cities area was and still technically is, Île d'Orléans but obviously that would not be used.

However, the cities nickname, Ville du Croissant/ Crescent City is a possibility as at the turn of the fleuve Mississippi there is a crescent shape formed by it and the land on either side. Then a smaller cresecent is formed only a few km down between the Algiers pointe and the Vieux Carré and 9th ward Marigny area. So a Mayan equivalent of Crescent city or City of the Crescent is plausible.

Another possibility is the odd word, Tchouptoulas. A Louisianais French rendering of a Choctaw/Houma word meaning beside the river or down the river. Perhaps a Mayan play on this word could be used? This name could in otl have become the official name, when LaBalize was the major city in Louisiane (1690s-1718), the area was likely called this as a Indian trading post before the area was renamed in the French manner and Tchouptoulas became a major street along the Mississippi.

 

[Jon the Numbat]

Thank you @John7755 يوحنا ! Actually, Ku-Hanan was originally what I was going to name the site at Vieux Carré, but I liked the idea of the named chiefdom so as to give perspective to the growth of the Chitimacha. I probably should've used quotations or the same name for both the site and society either way.

I like the idea of the crescent being the source of a name. There's also the likelihood of different names for the site owing to the diverse array of peoples who port there. Huastec, Yucatec, and "Cuban" Mayan in addition to the various languages surrounding the delta. Its possible if not guaranteed that a trading specific tongue would form, analogous to Mobilian Jargon (thanks to @ramones1986 for informing me of that language). From there many names are possible depending on how the speakers mix.

l also really like the idea of Mesoamerican rendering of the original form of Tchouptoulas (and I just like the name in general). With Mississippian sailors stopping in ports along Veracruz, other language families like Totonacan and Mixe–Zoque could be thrown into the mix, especially if butterflies lead to them having a much more influence in their heartlands. I wonder what type of naming conventions could form from the knowledge of distant cultral regions. No doubt these travellers will find ways to define the world they've come to know.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

@Jon the Numbat

Yeah, Tchoupitoulas is said like (Chop-tou-luh) it follows the Louisianais French form of rendering indigenous names with tch with chop or essentially silent t's. I have no idea how the Mayans or other groups would render it. There are many other instances of words and place names in Louisiane that have been highly adapted into French and could be the actual names of sites without the French dominating the naming process (as in, trading posts did have native names but by the 1700s, the French renamed or adapted these names to one pronounceable to the new French colonists). So we could see the same happen with the Mayans or other groups and even an occasion where there are many different names for the city and the nickname (city of the crescent) is the standard.

Either way, the naming process of these sites all over, is going to enjoyable in my opinion.

Does anyone have knowledge of Mayan or other native languages to be used, that would see a way to adapt these names?

 

[Skallagrim]

I'm afraid that linguistic concerns in this region are a field in which I can be of absolutely no use.

Another factor came up in the Polynesian Galapagos thread that @Masked Grizzly referenced earlier (and which i am now following with great interest). In the context of this discussion here, one particular idea stood out to me:

If they're trading, would they ever be able to import pigs from elsewhere in Polynesia, or will their main focus be toward the Americas rather than Polynesia? They'd definitely import guinea pigs and such from South America.

...I mean, if we're going with the idea that contact between Polynesia and South America (being most likely a repeated historical occurrence) will simply become a factor in this ATL as well, then the establishment of trade contacts between the Maya trade network and the Polynesians is not unthinkable. Travel distances will mean that travel between these two spheres will be less frequent, but cultural, agricultural and technological exchange is of course possible. I postulated earlier that this would be possible as of c. 1300, and that upon encounyering Polynesians, a Maya delegation/vessel might just decide to venture out and accompany the Polynesians on their journey back west. (This being the Maya age if exploration, with ever more far-flung oceanic voyages.)

In this context, would it be possible that the Maya exploreres, upon returning back east, bring live pigs with them? I'm curious since pigs, obviously, are known carriers of disease. It is commonly believed that human-to-human contact was very minor in spreading disease to the new world, but the introduction of livestock (pigs especially, I gather) was a major factor. So suppose pigs get to the Americas, carrying diseases, in the early 14th century? That might mean disease hits before the Europeans get there. Obviously, less than 200 years is not going to be enough to build up resistance or to recover from (what I expect to be) mass casualties. But ceteris paribus... would this situation be better or worse than the OTL one where the disease erupts when the Europeans introduce it? On the one hand, it means (if we assume the entire trade network is struck by wabes of disease) that the Europeans encounter a society already very weakened by the epidemics. On the other hand, by the time Columbus gets there, the Native Americans in question will be very familiar with this kind of disease, and will presumably have thought to implement a system of quarantine at the first sign of an outbreak.

I'm very curious if this possible development would help or hurt, ultimately. (Obviously, if we reach the conclusion that it helps. I suggest putting it in the ATL, and if it hurts, I vote for keeping it out.)

 

[twovultures]

In this context, would it be possible that the Maya exploreres, upon returning back east, bring live pigs with them? I'm curious since pigs, obviously, are known carriers of disease.

I feel the need to put this one to rest. Pigs were disruptive both to farm and wild fields, thus threatening both crops and the wild emergency foods that Indians depended on when crops failed, so wild pigs could exacerbate risk of starvation in times of drought. However, I think the ability of pigs to spread diseases is more limited than seems to be the received wisdom of posters whenever this topic comes up. Certainly pigs eating and defecating everywhere raises the specter of fecal contamination, and pigs are carriers of influenza-but so are turkeys, waterfowl like Muscovy ducks, and for that matter seals (which would be both a food item and a trade item in both this scenario and the Polynesian Galapagos scenario).

Something as massively infectious as smallpox or measles is unlikely to jump from pigs to humans. I don't think they did IOTL; measles and smallpox may have jumped from animals to humans in the Old World, but I don't think that childhood diseases jumped from people to livestock and back to people over the course of a voyage of livestock to the New World. Even if this somehow did happen, it's not like the pigs in Polynesia harbored lethal diseases-if they did, they would have almost annihilated their owners, who were quite vulnerable to epidemics as well as the European sailors who found the Polynesian islands after centuries of isolation.

Ultimately, the most useful think about pigs and what makes them attractive animals despite their resource intensiveness is their ability to turn almost anything that is inedible or not worth the harvesting to humans into protein that is usable from a human perspective. It would make meat a lot easier to obtain if you have pigs in the village, instead of having to maintain savannas through controlled burning and then going on time-consuming deer hunts in said savannas (this was about as close as the Mayans got to Old World-style livestock husbandry). Ultimately useful, but not, I think, a giant game changer in the way that horses, camelids or other labor livestock might be.

 

[ric350]

For these scenarios to play out, wouldn't the religious practice of human sacrifice have to be abandoned or avoided all together? I don't see how a homogeneous society can be formed across such a wide area, when the priests are demanding victims for the gods. Didn't the Europeans play on these fears/hatreds in their conquests?

Ric350

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

For these scenarios to play out, wouldn't the religious practice of human sacrifice have to be abandoned or avoided all together? I don't see how a homogeneous society can be formed across such a wide area, when the priests are demanding victims for the gods. Didn't the Europeans play on these fears/hatreds in their conquests?

Ric350

I don't see why human sacrifice would harm the expansion of these societies. In some cases, you could argue it would help in a dark way.

 

[Sumeo]

For these scenarios to play out, wouldn't the religious practice of human sacrifice have to be abandoned or avoided all together? I don't see how a homogeneous society can be formed across such a wide area, when the priests are demanding victims for the gods. Didn't the Europeans play on these fears/hatreds in their conquests?

Ric350

No It wasn't that human sacrifices that lead to the Aztec former vassal to turn against them. Most of said vassals practiced it as well. It was the frequency and the scale that the Aztec sacrificed that made them decide to join the Spanish.

 

[John7755 يوحنا]

No It wasn't that human sacrifices that lead to the Aztec former vassal to turn against them. Most of said vassals practiced it as well. It was the frequency and the scale that the Aztec sacrificed that made them decide to join the Spanish.

Yea, if I am not correct, most human sacrificing in other states from the Aztecs, practiced it to a lesser degree. The Aztec were quite extreme in terms of human sacrifice.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Yea, if I am not correct, most human sacrificing in other states from the Aztecs, practiced it to a lesser degree. The Aztec were quite extreme in terms of human sacrifice.

Yes, the Aztecs had a "Chosen People" supremacist vibe about them that justified their (by the standards of the time) extreme practices of human sacrifice.

 

[Jon the Numbat]

@Jon the Numbat

Yeah, Tchoupitoulas is said like (Chop-tou-luh) it follows the Louisianais French form of rendering indigenous names with tch with chop or essentially silent t's. I have no idea how the Mayans or other groups would render it. There are many other instances of words and place names in Louisiane that have been highly adapted into French and could be the actual names of sites without the French dominating the naming process (as in, trading posts did have native names but by the 1700s, the French renamed or adapted these names to one pronounceable to the new French colonists). So we could see the same happen with the Mayans or other groups and even an occasion where there are many different names for the city and the nickname (city of the crescent) is the standard.

Either way, the naming process of these sites all over, is going to enjoyable in my opinion.

Does anyone have knowledge of Mayan or other native languages to be used, that would see a way to adapt these names?

Indeed, there will be a plethora of naming conventions and language dispersals across the sea lanes. I'm thinking that the Cuban-Maya tongue would descend from the Yucatec Maya language, heavily influenced by Taino, while the far Honduran one would be derived from Q'eqchi. I wish I was well versed in linguistics to speculate further, but hopefully these bases in mind could help those much more knowledgeable.

I'm also curious on how these people would perceive the lands they're visiting and how they would define it in their culture. Would the Maya use new ways to define their place in the world? What would the Mississippian's make of Mesoamerica, or the Taino of Central America? There's many fascinating perceptions to explore.

@Skallagrim @Masked Grizzly, thinking of Polynesia, with direct trade and contact along the Pacific during the beginning in the 1300s (plying the routes that have been established for centuries) and technologies spreading along the coastline already being a thing, I think an interchange in foods and agricultural techniques between Mesoamerica and the Andes will definitely happen. In fact, to Polynesia, it may be likely.

If a wayward voyager from Polynesia would happen to land in the Americas, they would find catamarans to be a familiar sight as @Skallagrim implied (though the sail designs are likely totally different). Moreover, the crew would be able to return home fully stocked and with a brand new boat. The end result might be that the Americas come to be more influential to Polynesia than the reverse. I'm thinking of American crops and some smaller animals spreading to Polynesia, roughly similar to the spread of sweet potato. A stark rise in population could ensue in the islands and we could witness great changes in Polynesian society.

 

[Pesterfield]

With all this trade will the Maya spread writing?

 

[The Sandman]

I'm wondering if the Amazonian societies will be tied into this network in some way.

Also, if there's any likelihood of Mayan ships making it to the east before the Europeans show up. In particular, to West Africa.

 

[Zheng He]

That is a fantastic TL that was developed. I would love to see this fleshed out further. My thinking was that Mayan colonies and settlements throughout the Caribbean Basin would allow those elements of the culture to survive the collapse of classical Mayan civilization at the end of the first millennium. I like a lot better the idea that this creates safety valve for population pressures and allows classical Mayan civilization to survive.

The one question, how does any of this mitigate the spread of diseases like Small Pox once the Europeans arrive? Without that, the results are still the same.

 

[Zheng He]

If I nominate this for a Turtledove, where does it belong?

 

[Rosella]

The one question, how does any of this mitigate the spread of diseases like Small Pox once the Europeans arrive? Without that, the results are still the same.

Good: More people
Bad: More cities

 

[Pesterfield]

Metal tools should mean more crop land available, even sticking with copper.
If crop packages are intermingled different things should come in at different times.
Preservation is a problem, freeze drying is only available to the Inca.

The problem with an epidemic is so many people sick they can't carry on daily life, will there be enough food surplus to weather that?

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Good: More people
Bad: More cities

It also depends on how these Caribbean Maya cities are organized. If they're organized into large, organized empires, I see the Spanish or any other Europeans making quick work in conquering them. If the contrary, it would be a longer, drawn out process. But that's just me.

 

[Jon the Numbat]

With all this trade will the Maya spread writing?

Considering there were parts of Mesoamerica that didn't utilize writing, I think it might be one of the last things to be picked up. The Americas boasted many densely populated societies (and powerful empires) without a single written word. However, we are talking about the Maya, whose literary tradition was very consistent in Mesoamerica. I can see writing systems descended from Mayan being fully established in western Cuba as well as in cities across the Caribbean where Maya are politically and demographically dominant.

The surrounding chiefdom polities might not have a desire to pick up writing for a while. Foodstuffs and technologies will likely proceed things like writing (if the spread of American metallurgy is anything to go by). It might not be until the 1500s that various scripts appear in the distinctly non-Maya parts of the trade network.

One area, however, might pick up writing much more rapidly, the Mississippi delta. The time frame from 1300-1500 in Louisiana would be one of meteoric population growth and technical exchange. The need to properly manage the distribution of exotic Mesoamerican goods, regulate the trade in copper, wood, and tools, assign labor quotas, engineer canals/mounds, produce maritime equipment, and counting the food needed to feed it all could see the delta chiefs use writing or at least Mesoamerican counting systems. Derived from the Post Classic Maya script and utilizing Mississippian cultural iconography, the latest 1400s/early 1500s could see the first writing systems north of Mesoamerica.

If you could forgive a future projection without European contact, the possibilities are more pronounced. The Post Classic would be succeeded by a "Middle Americas Maritime Age," with shared cultural artistic elements across the region accompanied by intensive interaction and a shared economy as trade passes a critical mass. The Chiefdoms of the Greater Antilles, Central America, Colombia, Florida, Gulf coast, and Honduras all consolidate and centralize further (a process well under way OTL but accelerated ITTL). Port cities dot the rim, and with it lies a fully solidified, matured networking, a complete synthesis of plants, animals, and technology from all of the region's players. Middle America resembles Mesoamerica and the Andes in terms of urban and political formation. In fact one may consider all three regions as one world. At this point, which might happen several centuries after 1300, literary tradition of many kinds would be ubiquitous.

I'm wondering if the Amazonian societies will be tied into this network in some way.

Also, if there's any likelihood of Mayan ships making it to the east before the Europeans show up. In particular, to West Africa.

Thinking about the spread of sweet potatoes to Polynesia and the use of shipping technology like catamarans, indirect diffusion of plants and animals across the Atlantic might be more feasible than I initially thought. The Lesser Antilles, with smaller lands to cultivate and the confidence to sail in open sea, will develop their fishing capabilities to a greater extent over time. They may even become among the best sailors of the interaction sphere. The Lesser Antillean mariners would turn to the forests of the Guianas to build their boats as wood becomes scarce on the home islands.

Villages on the coast of the Guianas could serve as launch points for expeditions as well as raids. When they reach the highly productive Amazon delta, Antillean sailors could trade with foods, as well as stone tools (stone is much rarer on the island). Marajoara fishing communities would for one enjoy the ability to travel far afield for a catch. An ATL Carib style migration or expansion could very well arise between the Lesser Antilles and the Orinoco. An expansion pulse directed towards Marajo island might catch the Equatorial Counter Current moving to the east.

I'm not imagining colonies on the coast of Africa, rather a one-way trip that leaves little behind demographically, but alot agriculturally. The distance between South America and Africa is short compared to the distance OTL catamarans traversed.

As for the effect on Amazonian societies, the river proper housed several chiefdoms who in fact participated in indirect, long distance trade. The Conibo and Piro of the Peruvian Amazon had large permanent settlements governed by militarily capable paramounts. They were known to have traded with the Machiparo, Omagua, and Solimoes chiefdoms located between the city of Manaus and the lower Putumayo. These were connected, in turn, to the Tapajos chiefdoms and Marajoara. The former was most powerful of Amazonian societies. Based near Santarém, the Tapajos produced cotton thread, raised ducks and turtles, cultivated maize, manioc, and fruit trees, even trading in jade, while controlling a multiethnic population. It's capital housed tens of thousands and commanded many more. I don't think they would be effected too much without an earlier POD but with the mature "Maritime Age" mentioned above and continued development for a few centuries, the Amazon river proper could have a continuous exchange culture between it's source and mouth.

 

[Rosella]

It also depends on how these Caribbean Maya cities are organized. If they're organized into large, organized empires, I see the Spanish or any other Europeans making quick work in conquering them. If the contrary, it would be a longer, drawn out process. But that's just me.

I meant in relation to spread of smallpox, but yes.