May 1942, Speer leads a discussion on U boats

May 1942:


Albert Speer: Mien fuhrer, the math does not lie. Already, U boat losses agaisnt escorted convoys are un economical. Its going to get much, much worse..... Radar, Sonar, Huff Duff, Leigh Lights, Hedge hogs etc etc. . U boat production devours precision manufacturing recesources. Each U boat sunk also costs us 45 brave, technically inclined men.

Himmler: Mien Fuhrer, party membership is low in the navy in general and in the U boats in particular. In fact, treasonous jokes are said to be common on some boats.

Hitler: Pops another pain killer and starts to think. Speer's presentation was a blur, but Himmler's comment burns into his brain. Jokes... about National Socialism? "The pain is too much" he yells, "All U boat production is cancelled. All men in training are released". His ranting lasts for another hour.

What do the Germans do with the precision recesources and skilled men? More tanks, or more jets, or more and earlier V-2s?
 
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Hyperion

Banned
Agree. This is bordering on ASB.

In May of 1942 the U-boats where hurting the allies pretty badly, and few if any of the weapons or systems used later in the war to defeat them where in action yet, let alone known to the Germans.

That and in 1942, Hitler wasn't completely off his rocker, yet.

Now if this was in 1943, or even in 1944, I could see it being realistic.

If you want a significant change in the war, 1943 is the best bet.

Keep in mind though, if the U-boats stop attacking a lot, that will just make things that much easier shipping supplies to Britain and Italy.

Likewise, the easier the allies have it, the sooner the US can shift Navy units to the Pacific to beat Japan.
 
In May 1942 the U-boats where enjoying the "second happy time" and they where winning

Speer's relentless, logic driven mind continues.....

Speer: "The "Second Happy Time" is an illusion. The U-boats are winning only in ideal situations (experienced crews, un escorted convoys, ships sailing alone).

"The U boats have already lost the vital North Atlantic where every convoy is escorted. Escorts and aircraft are also starting to cover American shipping on the Eastern Seaboard."

Himmler: Albert, the U-Boats lost their destiny with the first joke about National Socialism....

Speer: Rolls his eyes as he reaches for another damming tabualtion of sinking verse loss ratios. "The math does not lie, the " Second Happy Time" is an illusion and will end soon in a nightmare....

In May of 1942 the U-boats where hurting the allies pretty badly, and few if any of the weapons or systems used later in the war to defeat them where in action yet, let alone known to the Germans.
Actually, with the exception of Leigh Lights, all the weapons to beat the U Boats were already in place. It was only a matter of time to get sufficient quantity for a knock out punch. Future quality improvements of existing systems were just icing on the Allied cake.

An objective look at U-boat victory verse U boat loss ratios against escorted convoys (even with the most experienced U boat crews) would have revealed that the U-boats had clearly lost by May 1942. The Germans even sent boats to the distant and secondary South Atlantic and Indian ocean because losses were already too high against escorted convoys on the North Atlantic run. Of course, the Germans framed the decision differently.
Agree. This is bordering on ASB.
You are making the same error the historical Germans made....
Fact: We can still sink many unescorted or badly escorted ships, The Americans are not escorting their ships and we are sinking alot of them.
Conclusion: The U-boats will continue to sink alot of ships.
Ignored Contradiction: The assumption that the Americans are never going to properly escort their ships. If they do, then we"ll just find other unescorted ships to attack.

Wrong.
 
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Speer's relentless, logic driven mind continues.....

Speer: "The "Second Happy Time" is an illusion. The U-boats are winning only in ideal situations (experienced crews, un escorted convoys, ships sailing alone).

"The U boats have already lost the vital North Atlantic where every convoy is escorted. Escorts and aircraft are also starting to cover American shipping on the Eastern Seaboard."

Himmler: Albert, the U-Boats lost their destiny with the first joke about National Socialism....

Speer: Rolls his eyes as he reaches for another damming tabualtion of sinking verse loss ratios. "The math does not lie, the " Second Happy Time" is an illusion and will end soon in a nightmare....


Actually, with the exception of Leigh Lights, all the weapons to beat the U Boats were already in place. It was only a matter of time to get sufficient quantity for a knock out punch. Future quality improvements of existing systems were just icing on the Allied cake.

An objective look at U-boat victory verse U boat loss ratios against escorted convoys (even with the most experienced U boat crews) would have revealed that the U-boats had clearly lost by May 1942. The Germans even sent boats to the distant and secondary South Atlantic and Indian ocean because losses were already too high against escorted convoys on the North Atlantic run. Of course, the Germans framed the decision differently.

You are making the same error the historical Germans made....
Fact: We can still sink many unescorted or badly escorted ships, The Americans are not escorting their ships and we are sinking alot of them.
Conclusion: The U-boats will continue to sink alot of ships.
Ignored Contradiction: The assumption that the Americans are never going to properly escort their ships. If they do, then we"ll just find other unescorted ships to attack.

Wrong.


I think you are misreading the objective of the U-boat campaign

I don't think anyone in 1942 (Hitler included) was thinking that they could starve Britiain into submission anymore; that window had long since passed

The reason to continue the U-boat campaign was to delay the build up of large scale forces and equipment from north america in the UK and other places so that the Germans could committ the maximum resources to subdue russia whislt only leaving skelaton forces in the west

There COULD be some rationale that the second happy time would be short lived until the US would have B-24 patrols and escort carriers; but in May 1942 case blue is taking off; and the Germans only think they need a small amount of time to finish off Russia; then they would have the forces available to combat any western invasion

I think your POD is too early to be viable
 
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