Maximum Size of A Chinese Empire before 400 AD?

I doesn't really have to be the Han dynasty. How would a Qi-unified China which is more focused on the east (producing continent-sized butterflies) fare? More eastwards expansion and a stronger Chinese navy?

I might be wrong here, but didn't Japan really start to be influenced by China after the Han?
A lasting Qi Dynasty? Well assuming you fix all of it's many problems so that it can actually be a stable state then I think you could see China hold hegemony over Korea and parts of South East asia but I don't believe that any Dynasty would be able to hold onto large parts of Japan; it would require constant attention and likely just bog the empire down a bit.

Yes, they did--mostly during the Heian period. But this is later than 400 AD.
 
@Xianfeng Emperor
You're best bet for Chinese influence in Japan in my opinion is to either have a merchant expedition or military expedition that introduces the Chinese market to Japan; thus making Japan a lot more economicly tied with China enabling China to use it as leverage to make them tributaries or if you're lucky enough Vassals.
 
@Xianfeng Emperor
You're best bet for Chinese influence in Japan in my opinion is to either have a merchant expedition or military expedition that introduces the Chinese market to Japan; thus making Japan a lot more economicly tied with China enabling China to use it as leverage to make them tributaries or if you're lucky enough Vassals.
I was thinking of an analogue to Rome, but that can't be achieved for obvious reasons:neutral:.
 
The Qi was pretty populated itself already. The West really isn't a place that the Qi can rely on as a power base.
That's not the point.It's hard to communicate with the western provinces from a place so far to the east.It's the reason why Zhu Yuanzhang tried to move the capital from Nanjing and asked the crown prince to survey Luoyang and Chang'an as possible capitals.
 
I doesn't really have to be the Han dynasty. How would a Qi-unified China which is more focused on the east (producing continent-sized butterflies) fare? More eastwards expansion and a stronger Chinese navy?

I might be wrong here, but didn't Japan really start to be influenced by China after the Han?

There was huge influence by Eastern Wu.
 
I was thinking of an analogue to Rome, but that can't be achieved for obvious reasons:neutral:.
You wanted for Japan to be China's Britain? Best case scenario for that is some Emperor seeking to prove himself through conquest or someone who has a god-complex decides against all logic to invade Japan. While it is possible for them to occupy Japan, I think if you took that approach Chinese rule on the archipelago would rapidly descend into non-existence the longer Chinese troops weren't on the island. You're much better having something like the Ming dynasty had with the Kingdom of Ryukyu.
 
That's not the point.It's hard to communicate with the western provinces from a place so far to the east.It's the reason why Zhu Yuanzhang tried to move the capital from Nanjing and asked the crown prince to survey Luoyang and Chang'an as possible capitals.
Wouldn't it be equally hard for the western provinces (eg: Xianyang) to communicate with the East? I'd say later dynasties decided to move their capitals to the Guanzhong region for 2 reasons: it was easily defensible and that previous dynasties had already built upon it. A Qi unified China would have eliminated the second reason. The Guanzhong reigon of the time was no where near as built up as it was at the time of the Han, since Qinshihuang's infrastructure and defensive projects hadn't been commissioned.
 

scholar

Banned
I doesn't really have to be the Han dynasty. How would a Qi-unified China which is more focused on the east (producing continent-sized butterflies) fare? More eastwards expansion and a stronger Chinese navy?

I might be wrong here, but didn't Japan really start to be influenced by China after the Han?
Qi was one of the stronger kingdoms in the Warring States period, but unifying under them would be a much longer prospect than the Qin. Jin was the strongest state for a little while, but it was broken apart into three states. Qin was the next best prospect. Chu had a decent shot, but it was a victim of its own size so it could not conquer without risking invasion from its other fronts. Qi was densely populated, rich, and an early sponsor for Legalism, but otherwise it was more of a deciding factor in alliance systems rather than a state with a real shot of being the main unifier.

Japan had indirect influence from China for many centuries, with some influence before the Han being suggested, but Japan only truly got the notice of China in the Three Kingdoms era - and would only be truly influenced during the Northern and Southern Dynastic period. This influence peaked under the Tang, and then Japan started to project its own identity within the umbrella of Chinese civilization. Another important factor to bring up is that Japan was fragmentary, more village and principality, than a state around this time period. It was only around the time of the Tang that Japan was emerging as a cohesive force, suggesting that Chinese influence was most prominent at the time period where Japan was in its early emergence as a unified state.
 
Qi was one of the stronger kingdoms in the Warring States period, but unifying under them would be a much longer prospect than the Qin. Jin was the strongest state for a little while, but it was broken apart into three states. Qin was the next best prospect. Chu had a decent shot, but it was a victim of its own size so it could not conquer without risking invasion from its other fronts. Qi was densely populated, rich, and an early sponsor for Legalism, but otherwise it was more of a deciding factor in alliance systems rather than a state with a real shot of being the main unifier.
The Qin only became strong due to the Shang Yang reforms. Before that, it was by no means a strong state. The Wei meanwhile was the strongest of the three splinter nations descended from the Jin, and challenged Chu dominance while swatting aside the Qin. Had the Shang Yang reforms not occurred (which is very much possible) I honestly doubt if the Qin would even be remembered.
 
Wouldn't it be equally hard for the western provinces (eg: Xianyang) to communicate with the East? I'd say later dynasties decided to move their capitals to the Guanzhong region for 2 reasons: it was easily defensible and that previous dynasties had already built upon it. A Qi unified China would have eliminated the second reason. The Guanzhong reigon of the time was no where near as built up as it was at the time of the Han, since Qinshihuang's infrastructure and defensive projects hadn't been commissioned.
It would be quite difficult for Guanzhong to communicate with the East,but it's where the capital is located because the emperors valued it's defensible nature more than the ease of communication.In terms of communication,Luoyang or Daliang(Kaifeng) was definitely the better capitals.It's why later during the Tang Dynasty,the emperors had to travel to Luoyang frequently because Guanzhong could no longer sustain the burdens of being the capital alone and grain shipments have difficulty getting to Guanzhong.To avoid other regions seceding or rebelling,the Western Han Dynasty to my knowledge forces landlords from other regions to migrate to Guanzhong whenever they have gotten wealthy enough to prevent regionalism.
 
It would be quite difficult for Guanzhong to communicate with the East,but it's where the capital is located because the emperors valued it's defensible nature more than the ease of communication.In terms of communication,Luoyang or Daliang(Kaifeng) was definitely the better capitals.It's why later during the Tang Dynasty,the emperors had to travel to Luoyang frequently because Guanzhong could no longer sustain the burdens of being the capital alone and grain shipments have difficulty getting to Guanzhong.
Kaifeng (in the state of Wei during the Warring States) would indeed be a good capital that was relatively centered for China, yet close to the Qi's power base for a hypothetical Qi Dynasty, even if the grand canal hadn't been built.
 
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scholar

Banned
The Qin only became strong due to the Shang Yang reforms. Before that, it was by no means a strong state. The Wei meanwhile was the strongest of the three splinter nations descended from the Jin, and challenged Chu dominance while swatting aside the Qin. Had the Shang Yang reforms not occurred (which is very much possible) I honestly doubt if the Qin would even be remembered.
Qin was a strong state with a weak governmental framework, Lord Shang brought out the potential of Qin.
 
Qin was a strong state with a weak governmental framework, Lord Shang brought out the potential of Qin.
The reason why the Wei became weak was due to the alliance between its neighbors following the Shang Yang reforms, leaving the Qin to fill the void and reverse their defeats (and minor decline during the early warring states) against the Wei. While the Qin were a rising power in the West, it would still be dwarfed by the Wei or even the Zhao without Lord Shang.
 

scholar

Banned
The reason why the Wei became weak was due to the alliance between its neighbors following the Shang Yang reforms, leaving the Qin to fill the void and reverse their defeats (and minor decline during the early warring states) against the Wei. While the Qin were a rising power in the West, it would still be dwarfed by the Wei or even the Zhao without Lord Shang.
Wei's location was its own Achilles heel. It was exposed on all sides, and could do little to expand without risk of courting disaster.
 
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