Maximum Size for Burgundy?

Just imagine though just how a Burgundy that extends from North Sea to Mediterranean would have to navigate European diplomacy to hold on to what power it can. It was suggested above that it might stay neutral when possible like a Switzerland of sorts, though controlling all that land means that it would be unlikely to stay that way. How would this affect relations between France and the Emperor?
 
This was actually kind of the plan in OTL. He wanted his daughter to marry the Duke of Provence (or maybe it was the Duke's son, I'm not 100% sure). Problem was that Emperor Maximillian would definitely refuse to support Charles's claims unless Charles betrothed his daughter Maximillian's son.




I think that he should try to trade the outlying territories to gain a contiguous territory. In the Netherlands, I'd suggest happily trading away everything north of the IJssel. Frisa, Groningen, the Oversticht section of the prince-Bishopric of Utrecht (which could be compensated with additional authority elsewhere tithin Burgundy, I'm sure-- especially if Maximillian is backing the plan) and Zutphen. Whatever (varying) power Charles has over those can and should be traded for control of more valuable (to him!) lands that can increase the contiguity of his kingdom. He ought likewise to give up Mark, and ideally, he could try to split Cleves, keeping just enough to connect the Veluwe and Guelders handily, but giving up the rest.

Further south, he could sacrifice some outlying parts of non-contiguous Lorraine, as well as the Breisgau, Basel and other minor outlying holdings in Switzerland. The idea would be to trade everything mentioned up to this point with those who are holding certain lands that threaten Burgundy's territorial contiguity.

On the French side, everything south and west of Artois should be given up, as well as Ducal lands of Burgundy (yes, I mean it) and Bar. The authority Charles has there should be traded to the French crown, in exchange for recognition and some lands in the south that would greatly improve Burgundy's contiguity there. This would be a major win for France (direct control over coveted lands gained without a single battle!) but would likewise get Charles far greater security in exchange for lands he couldn't really hope to defend anyway.

The result would look something like this (with sincere apologies to the cartographer for my crude lines):

View attachment 406248


Still not what you'd call defensible, but far more contiguous, endowed with recognition from the neighbours, and made up of all the lands you'd really want to own in this scenario.




The above scenario of 'claim swaps' would solve this problem for most areas in question. Only Flanders and Artois would remain as French lands (that happen to be in personal union with Burgundy). Depending on the exact circumstances, varying options would be available. If france is really weakened in the scenario, then an alliance of england, Burgundy and the HRE can probably force France to rescind any claims to Flanders and Artois. That would be the neatest solution. In that case, they would no doubt end up inside the HRE, along with the rest of the kingdom. If France retains greater strength, the existing situation would be perpetuated, the kingdom proper would fall within the HRE, and Flanders and Artois would remain outside the HRE.

If any other land swap (or even no land swap) occurs, we may assume that any French lands remain French (but in personal union with Burgundy), and outside the HRE.

In the unlikely event of a total France-screw, it's even possible that all French lands in personal union with Burgundy are split wholly from France, and handed over to Burgundy directly. I'm sure Charles secretly dreamed of that at night, but it's very improbable that it would happen. If it did, Maximilian would certainly demand that those lands are included into the HRE.

Ehh no Holy Roman Emperor (or King of the Romans) would or could go for this. The plan was the get the Burgundian territories back into the Imperial fold not to give even more Imperial territory away, also dynastically I'm pretty sure the Habsburgs will demand Sundgau and Breisgau back.
It doesn't mean nothing would have been possible, de facto Burgundian territories like the bishoprics of Utrecht and Liege (Luik/Lüttich) and Cambrai (Kamerijk) could be transferred, even Groningen and Friesland are possible.

Much harder will be Cleves, let alone Lorraine & Bar and the bishoprics of Metz, Verdun and Toul. IMHO Savoy is a no go, not in the interests of the Emperor, nor other great houses in the Empire. Lorraine (and thus Bar, Metz, Verdun and Toul) is in a tougher spot, it too will be seen as steep price for the Imperial side, but in turn can extract steep Burgundian concessions, which does not make it necessary to formally throw in Savoy or Mark into such an offer.

In fact best case scenario for the Emperor would be a Burgundian kingdom with Liege, Cambrai, Utrecht, Friesland and Groningen, without anything more, so with the Lorraine land-bridge between the two 'Burgundies'.

As for the Northern French possessions of Burgundy, Burgundy may also be able to keep Boulogne (best case scenario), but I'm far less certain of Vermandois, Amiens and Ponthieu.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Ehh no Holy Roman Emperor (or King of the Romans) would or could go for this. The plan was the get the Burgundian territories back into the Imperial fold not to give even more Imperial territory away, also dynastically I'm pretty sure the Habsburgs will demand Sundgau and Breisgau back.

That last bit was already mentioned. I overlooked that, and do agree there. As to the more general point, however, I must disagree-- at least under the terms of the scenario I proposed. I don't think what I have outlined is in any way the likely outcome, and what you describe would be a far more plausible outcome if we simply assume the negotiations between Charles and Maximillian go on and come to a real solution. However, my explicit scenario (devised to fulfill the OP's actual challenge) is that an alliance between England, Burgundy, the HRE (and Brittany, one assumes, in an attempt to avoid its OTL subjugation to France) inflicts a crushing defeat on France. This would give our man Charles the Bold vastly more chances to exploit his position. As far as the HRE is concerned, I explicitly noted that Maximillian would demand that basically all of the enlarged Burgundy would be placed within the HRE-- which means that in fact, the borders of the HRE are going to pushed west by this. If Maximillian also manages to badger Charles into marrying his daughter off to Maximillian's son, there are suddenly about a million reason for Max to definitely support this plan.
 
Would Charles or any of his predecessors consider claiming the Kingdom of Lotharingia rather than Burgundy? They hold far more of the lands of Lotharingia, Lower Lotharingia especially. Upper Lotharingia they already have Luxembourg, and only Lorraine stands in the way of that.
 
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