Maximum Size for Burgundy?

Had Charles the Bold not died during the Battle of Nancy and assuming he wins the war against the Swiss, what is the maximum territorial extent you can foresee him (attempt to) expand towards in the future?

Sunday and Breisgau were pledged to him by the Emperor, and it is reasonable that he'll try to at very least vassalize the bishoprics of Verdun, Metz, Toul, Cambrai, Liege, and Utrecht which were enclaved in the Burgundian lands. He's meddled on Cologne before, and he has ties to Savoy in the south.

Might he try to expand to Alsace, or to the lands of the former stem duchy of Lotharingia (Trier, Aachen, Julich, Berg)? The northern unruly Frisians might also be a target.

Perhaps he wants to spread further south to the actual lands of Burgundy(Dauphine, Lyonnais, Provence) or perhaps subjugate the Swiss? Or might Burgundy go after more French lands, like Champagne or Normandy?
 
Those don't look like defensible borders - France's power would have to be broken for Burgundy to have any chance of surviving.
 

Marc

Donor
Since I read Mary Gentle's superb novel about an imaginary Burgundy, Ash: A Secret History, I've had a sentimental regard for the concept of a continuing Kingdom of Burgundy.
Basically, (not in the novel), it's an attempt to somehow keep tangible Middle Francia - which is rarely discussed as a possibility around here.
It obviously would require a much weaker France. The Germans are easier to deal with since they have numerous internal and external issues during the centuries it would take to firmly establish this lost Burgundy.
Still, it's plausible, if unlikely, and offers a whole lot of country to explore.
 
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This map does a great job of outlining Charles the Bold's ambitions at their wildest extent.

This map was actually what inspired me to create this thread, haha! Granted, the map is leaves a lot of things enclaved (though that is to be expected with medieval borders especially in the HRE). It only has the bishopric of Verdun and Toul on there when it would probably also include Metz as well to fill in those gaps in Lorraine. It also leaves Montbeliard in between Franch-Comte and Sundgau. So though this is based off of one OTL letter, I'd like to see the other correspondences and see what they propose.

Those don't look like defensible borders - France's power would have to be broken for Burgundy to have any chance of surviving.

To be fair, I didn't say it had to last very long, only that Burgundy attained a rather large size. Burgundy as it was was already difficult to defend and disconnected from the start from the rest of its territories; the High Countries were mostly in the Rhone basin, the Low Countries with the Rhine. And yet through marriages and wars it managed to get lands in both areas, divided by Lorraine/Bar/the Three Bishoprics, Liege, etc. Though it did try to connect them, invading Lorraine temporarily, it existed for quite a long time without having a connection like that.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Well, they certainly weren't joking about that "Bold" moniker, were they?

Those don't look like defensible borders - France's power would have to be broken for Burgundy to have any chance of surviving.

(...) it's an attempt to somehow keep tangible Middle Francia - which is rarely discussed as a possibility around here.
It obviously would require a much weaker France. The Germans are easier to deal with since they have numerous internal and external issues during the centuries it would take to firmly establish this lost Burgundy.
Still, it's plausible, if unlikely, and offers a whole lot of country to explore.

This map was actually what inspired me to create this thread, haha! Granted, the map is leaves a lot of things enclaved (though that is to be expected with medieval borders especially in the HRE). It only has the bishopric of Verdun and Toul on there when it would probably also include Metz as well to fill in those gaps in Lorraine. It also leaves Montbeliard in between Franch-Comte and Sundgau. So though this is based off of one OTL letter, I'd like to see the other correspondences and see what they propose.

Charles the Bold certainly did credit to his monniker with his crazy ambitions. It is indeed unlikely for his proposed state to have lasted for long, unless France were somehow to be weakened dramatically. A recent Richard III-centric timeline (now sadly discontinued because one of its creators was banned) seemed to be going in this exact direction. There are possibilities for a weakened France and for a Burgundy with powerful friends.

The exact dimensions of the proposed kingdom vary per proposal, and nothing was ever definitive. To my knowledge, this is pretty much the "largest" plan, though. If Charles the Bold, or his successors, had an ounce of sense in a scenaro where something like this succeeds, they should probably try to consolidate as much internal power as they can (maximise direct control), and try to swap outlying territories for lands "filling the gaps" in their own domains.

It's never going to be very defensible, even if made territorially contiguous and with exclaves traded away-- but for that reason, it also cannot be overtly hostile in any direction. The Holy Roman Emperor may well see it as a very useful check on any possible French expansion. Sure, this kingdom will be another of those irritatingly autonomous fiefs within the HRE (to be clear: any agreement between charles the Bold and the Emperor will certainly rest on the premise that the entire kingdom is considered within the HRE), but this means the danger of French aggression is limited somewhat.

France won't like any of this, but the whole premise for any of this to last must be that France is weakened critically. Dead kings and violent succession struggles, exploited by an Anglo-Burgundian(-Holy Roman Imperial) alliance, makes the most sense.
 
Charles the Bold certainly did credit to his monniker with his crazy ambitions. It is indeed unlikely for his proposed state to have lasted for long, unless France were somehow to be weakened dramatically. A recent Richard III-centric timeline (now sadly discontinued because one of its creators was banned) seemed to be going in this exact direction. There are possibilities for a weakened France and for a Burgundy with powerful friends.

The exact dimensions of the proposed kingdom vary per proposal, and nothing was ever definitive. To my knowledge, this is pretty much the "largest" plan, though. If Charles the Bold, or his successors, had an ounce of sense in a scenaro where something like this succeeds, they should probably try to consolidate as much internal power as they can (maximise direct control), and try to swap outlying territories for lands "filling the gaps" in their own domains.

It's never going to be very defensible, even if made territorially contiguous and with exclaves traded away-- but for that reason, it also cannot be overtly hostile in any direction. The Holy Roman Emperor may well see it as a very useful check on any possible French expansion. Sure, this kingdom will be another of those irritatingly autonomous fiefs within the HRE (to be clear: any agreement between charles the Bold and the Emperor will certainly rest on the premise that the entire kingdom is considered within the HRE), but this means the danger of French aggression is limited somewhat.

France won't like any of this, but the whole premise for any of this to last must be that France is weakened critically. Dead kings and violent succession struggles, exploited by an Anglo-Burgundian(-Holy Roman Imperial) alliance, makes the most sense.

Charles the Bold is probably the best ruler for a period of aggressive expansion, while his heirs (Margaret if she lives longer, any male heirs he might have had) would have to maintain peace and deal with the consequences of their father's audacity. Savoy extends the borders too much, though it lies in the historic Burgundian/Arelat region so maybe keeping it might lend some credence to Charles's claim to the Kingdom. Perhaps if he gives up any ambitions north of Franch-Comte then maybe he might gain more in the south? So no lordship over Cleves, Frisia, maybe content himself with leaving the bishoprics alone...

You mentioned that the Kingdom would be within the HRE- does that mean that Duchy of Burgundy and any French areas (Flanders, Vermandois, Rethel, Macon/Charolais) would then fall outside of the Empire as "side territories" while the true base of power is in the Imperial areas? Or would that kingship mean that the Burgundian lands formerly under French vassalage now fall under HRE's domain?
 
If he reaches this extent, the Bold could just try to steal Provence and crown himself King of Burgundy by having all of the Kingdom of Arles
 

Skallagrim

Banned
If he reaches this extent, the Bold could just try to steal Provence and crown himself King of Burgundy by having all of the Kingdom of Arles

This was actually kind of the plan in OTL. He wanted his daughter to marry the Duke of Provence (or maybe it was the Duke's son, I'm not 100% sure). Problem was that Emperor Maximillian would definitely refuse to support Charles's claims unless Charles betrothed his daughter Maximillian's son.


Charles the Bold is probably the best ruler for a period of aggressive expansion, while his heirs (Margaret if she lives longer, any male heirs he might have had) would have to maintain peace and deal with the consequences of their father's audacity. Savoy extends the borders too much, though it lies in the historic Burgundian/Arelat region so maybe keeping it might lend some credence to Charles's claim to the Kingdom. Perhaps if he gives up any ambitions north of Franch-Comte then maybe he might gain more in the south? So no lordship over Cleves, Frisia, maybe content himself with leaving the bishoprics alone...

I think that he should try to trade the outlying territories to gain a contiguous territory. In the Netherlands, I'd suggest happily trading away everything north of the IJssel. Frisa, Groningen, the Oversticht section of the prince-Bishopric of Utrecht (which could be compensated with additional authority elsewhere tithin Burgundy, I'm sure-- especially if Maximillian is backing the plan) and Zutphen. Whatever (varying) power Charles has over those can and should be traded for control of more valuable (to him!) lands that can increase the contiguity of his kingdom. He ought likewise to give up Mark, and ideally, he could try to split Cleves, keeping just enough to connect the Veluwe and Guelders handily, but giving up the rest.

Further south, he could sacrifice some outlying parts of non-contiguous Lorraine, as well as the Breisgau, Basel and other minor outlying holdings in Switzerland. The idea would be to trade everything mentioned up to this point with those who are holding certain lands that threaten Burgundy's territorial contiguity.

On the French side, everything south and west of Artois should be given up, as well as Ducal lands of Burgundy (yes, I mean it) and Bar. The authority Charles has there should be traded to the French crown, in exchange for recognition and some lands in the south that would greatly improve Burgundy's contiguity there. This would be a major win for France (direct control over coveted lands gained without a single battle!) but would likewise get Charles far greater security in exchange for lands he couldn't really hope to defend anyway.

The result would look something like this (with sincere apologies to the cartographer for my crude lines):

a_proposal_for_a_burgundian_kingdom -- edit.png



Still not what you'd call defensible, but far more contiguous, endowed with recognition from the neighbours, and made up of all the lands you'd really want to own in this scenario.


You mentioned that the Kingdom would be within the HRE- does that mean that Duchy of Burgundy and any French areas (Flanders, Vermandois, Rethel, Macon/Charolais) would then fall outside of the Empire as "side territories" while the true base of power is in the Imperial areas? Or would that kingship mean that the Burgundian lands formerly under French vassalage now fall under HRE's domain?

The above scenario of 'claim swaps' would solve this problem for most areas in question. Only Flanders and Artois would remain as French lands (that happen to be in personal union with Burgundy). Depending on the exact circumstances, varying options would be available. If france is really weakened in the scenario, then an alliance of england, Burgundy and the HRE can probably force France to rescind any claims to Flanders and Artois. That would be the neatest solution. In that case, they would no doubt end up inside the HRE, along with the rest of the kingdom. If France retains greater strength, the existing situation would be perpetuated, the kingdom proper would fall within the HRE, and Flanders and Artois would remain outside the HRE.

If any other land swap (or even no land swap) occurs, we may assume that any French lands remain French (but in personal union with Burgundy), and outside the HRE.

In the unlikely event of a total France-screw, it's even possible that all French lands in personal union with Burgundy are split wholly from France, and handed over to Burgundy directly. I'm sure Charles secretly dreamed of that at night, but it's very improbable that it would happen. If it did, Maximilian would certainly demand that those lands are included into the HRE.
 
What about marrying Mary of Burgundy to Nicholas of Valois-Anjou-Lorraine?

So that means this is post-Charles dying, and the French lands of Burgundy, Picardy, Nevers, and Rethel have been seized, reducing the size of the Burgundian lands quite a bit... However, the addition of Bar and possibly Bar, Naples, and Aragon since he was heir apparent to the latter three would more than make up for the loss. But at that point, Burgundy is in an even more precarious position than before I feel since it's been weakened, Burgundy is still not a kingdom, and has angered all of the local powers. Lorraine itself wasn't particularly keen on that as Charles had quarreled with Duke Renee II over the duchy itself, so there will be opposition to the marriage.



I'd have to agree with most of your reasoning here. I feel to get on better terms with the Emperor Charles would have to give up Sundgau too since that is technically leased Habsburg land and that's what infuriated Sigismund against Charles in the first place: the refusal to have him repurchase Breisgau and Sundgau. In turn, he can keep more of the Vaud in Switzerland or Zutphen as well.

In regards to Provence, 1480 is when it passed into the Royal Domain. Is there anyway to prevent that from happening so that Burgundy might claim some form of hegemony over to bolster its claim?
 
So that means this is post-Charles dying, and the French lands of Burgundy, Picardy, Nevers, and Rethel have been seized, reducing the size of the Burgundian lands quite a bit... However, the addition of Bar and possibly Bar, Naples, and Aragon since he was heir apparent to the latter three would more than make up for the loss. But at that point, Burgundy is in an even more precarious position than before I feel since it's been weakened, Burgundy is still not a kingdom, and has angered all of the local powers. Lorraine itself wasn't particularly keen on that as Charles had quarreled with Duke Renee II over the duchy itself, so there will be opposition to the marriage.


I'd have to agree with most of your reasoning here. I feel to get on better terms with the Emperor Charles would have to give up Sundgau too since that is technically leased Habsburg land and that's what infuriated Sigismund against Charles in the first place: the refusal to have him repurchase Breisgau and Sundgau. In turn, he can keep more of the Vaud in Switzerland or Zutphen as well.

In regards to Provence, 1480 is when it passed into the Royal Domain. Is there anyway to prevent that from happening so that Burgundy might claim some form of hegemony over to bolster its claim?
A wedding between Mary and Nicholas (and OTL if they were not engaged, a wedding between them was proposed before his early death) would be before Charles dying (plus Renè II was the cousin and successor of Nicholas so his quarrels with Charles are totally irrelevant here) and will need butterflying Nicholas' OTL death and having him choising Mary of Burgundy over the other girl to which he was engaged (Anne of France, eldest daughter of Louis XI and future regent for Charles VIII).
Surely the King of France will strongly oppose this wedding (as he wanted Mary for his heir, 13 years younger than her and Nicholas for his eldest daughter) but if they really want such wedding he will be unable to stop it
 
A wedding between Mary and Nicholas (and OTL if they were not engaged, a wedding between them was proposed before his early death) would be before Charles dying (plus Renè II was the cousin and successor of Nicholas so his quarrels with Charles are totally irrelevant here) and will need butterflying Nicholas' OTL death and having him choising Mary of Burgundy over the other girl to which he was engaged (Anne of France, eldest daughter of Louis XI and future regent for Charles VIII).
Surely the King of France will strongly oppose this wedding (as he wanted Mary for his heir, 13 years younger than her and Nicholas for his eldest daughter) but if they really want such wedding he will be unable to stop it

My apologies! I suppose I did not pay enough attention to the lineage and time spans of their rule. So a union of Lorraine and Burgundy, possibly Bar as well, connecting the two lands, or at the very least a marriage indicating more friendly relations between the two. This might allow for better control of the Low Countries from Dijon.
 
Fun fact: in Dutch Charles the Bold is called Karel de Stoute.
Which in modern Dutch means Charles the Naughty.

Now I'm imagining him as the subject of some Dutch fable/children's rhyme:

"Naughty Charles! You can't just go about cutting a swathe through Europe!" *plants halberd in his skull*
 
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